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<br />
Roger Marsh: Stress is an unfortunate part of life. And for mothers of younger children, it can be a regular occurrence. The daily tasks of packing lunches, cleaning messes, along with disciplining and teaching can be quite taxing. When this tension builds up and boils over, anger is often the immediate response. You're listening to Family Talk, a division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh with your host, child psychologist and respected author, Dr. James Dobson.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
On today's program, we're going to address that rage that mothers find themselves in through a conversation with Julie Barnhill. Julie has authored 12 books, including, She's Gonna Blow!, which is the center of our discussion here today. Julie is a frequent speaker at MOPS conventions and Hearts at Home conferences nationwide. She's very well spoken and an experienced mother of three. In a moment, she'll explain to Dr. Dobson why moms lose control and lash out at their kids. Julie will also share of a dark time in her life when she got a bit too physical with her own children. Let's listen in now to this thought-provoking conversation right here on this edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Our guest today is Julie Barnhill. She's written a number of great parenting books, including the one we're going to talk about today called She's Gonna Blow!: Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger. I'm almost sure I've never said this before, but this is a book that I wish I had written. There's so much here that's relevant to the family and I think is really going to be of help to people. Julie has been a guest on this program a few times now, as well as a number of different television and radio programs from NPR to the Oprah Winfrey Show to others. She's a former school teacher and a mother of three, and now she's a very popular speaker and author of She's Gonna Blow! Julie, I'm sure some of this is autobiographical, isn't it?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: A lot of it is-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: At least it comes out of your experience.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Been there done that. That's exactly- That's really the heart of writing and the heart of my speaking.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Were you a very explosive mom?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: You know, I was. It just simply blindsided me. I had no idea that was the kind of mother I was going to be. I like to say that I come out of an adoption, my past. I was adopted at age three, almost four years old. And I can remember as an eight-year-old girl, I remember this, praying and asking God to let me have children. I've often wondered if maybe there was some guilt or something like that. But you know, I wanted to be a mom, and I didn't leave a high-paying career and I didn't resent leaving the workforce as a public school teacher. Then, I had my first children, and-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Now, wait a minute. Before that, you were not an explosive person?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I was not. No. No, I got miffed, you know, irritated. My family, we don't argue, and my mom and dad [inaudible 00:03:09]. You know, you didn't yell at each other and things like that. So, no. I didn't have any idea that these kind of emotions were part of my makeup.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Isn't it interesting that children will bring that out in you?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Isn't that interesting?<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: It is. What was it about your kids that stirred such passion that you didn't know was there?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I think the number one thing is it's just it's tough. Children are hard to raise, and it's tough being a mom. I read all the books. I read the magazine articles. I wanted the children, but boy, when it came to the day-in-day-out realities, and the physical just wear of having a child, having it and then raising that child, and emotionally, and just being pulled in so many directions, and finding myself coming up short, you know, needing to go a little bit deeper and finding that I just didn't have any more to give that day.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Look back on those circumstances where you really felt out of control. What kinds of events were taking place? What were the kids doing?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And what were the triggers that led up to that. Well, I can tell you one story that this resonates so much with moms, and this is the kind of the reality of children and what you're not planned for. I had just had Ricky Neil. He is our second born. And went to the bank. I'd had a garage sale. I'd made over $700.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Wow.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Wow. I know. I sold everything, my husband's baseball equipment. You know, he doesn't have time for those things after being a father. Kristen was with me. She was absolutely adorable, and I was feeling so good. I had on some little capri pants and a knotted shirt at my hips, and I just thought I had it going. So, I'm there at the bank lobby, and Kristen is behind me entertaining. And I just thought, "I have the most precocious and wonderful child. I've just got this mothering thing down to a T," and I-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Watch out.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes. And I felt this little poke on my derri&egrave;re, just a little poke. And this little voice that said, "Big bottom, mama. Big bottom."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Oh, boy.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And everybody, they heard it. They started laughing, and I whipped around, unknotted my shirt, and I bent down and my good-mommy voice I was like, "Kristen, precious, we don't talk about mommy's bottom. You know, that's a no-no. So, don't say bottom again." So, I turned around and Kristen very compliant, firstborn child, didn't say anything. So, everything's right with the world, right? No. I get this punch in the derri&egrave;re, and she yelled as loud as could be, "Big butt, mama."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You got to be kidding.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I'm not lying. I just melted in a puddle of humiliation. I'd been accosted by a three-foot munchkin. So, you know, just that, the reality of that, and then going home and having a baby that you know, just ... I like to say Ricky just sucked the life out of me. He was a voracious baby. I loved him with all my heart, but he demanded my time, my energy. One of the worst case scenarios came at the end of a day when I just was worn out physically from having those two kids.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That's probably the key right there, Julie. You were exhausted.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I was exhausted.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: When you're that tired, the little things push you over the edge.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Right. And that's what I'll say a lot of times, you know-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I mean, you had two kids under 18 months.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes. My husband and I, you know, married, of course, and have this relationship, but I was really a single mom because he was traveling during the week and get home Friday night. Sunday morning, he's kind of packing his bags mentally getting ready for the trip on Monday, so bearing all of those things together. And exactly, sometimes I say, all it takes is that little poke: "mom, mom, mom," and you just [inaudible 00:06:48], you know? You just blow. You just blow up.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I remember hearing Shirley in the bathroom in the tub and Ryan at the door banging on the door and hearing her say, "Ryan, this is mommy's time. Ryan, go talk to your dad. Ryan, I ... " She couldn't take anymore.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Patrick, my youngest, at one point, I would let him ... He'd want to come in and love on me. That's what he'd say. "Mom, I want to love on you, you know, while you're in the restroom." And one day I realized, no, this is my time. Then, we close door, and his fingers are under the door and he's scratching. I mean, you just can't get away from them.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Julie, did it scare you when you blew up the first time?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, Dr. Dobson, I'll tell you what happened. This is when Kristen was the potty training and Rick, my husband, was traveling. Ricky, I would put him on a pallet on the floor and turn the mesh playpen upside down over him, because Kristen loved her little bubby so much that she would try to crawl in and she would land on the baby. You know, that's not good. So, I mean, this is ... You know, we had this whole system set up, and I just needed her to take a nap because I needed 20 minutes. That's all I needed. Financially, we were struggling. I mean, just every stress button there was.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
I put her down for a nap. She woke up. She came and woke me up. And I smelled her soiled pants. Ricky started crying. I started to have a letdown, you know, just ... And I just lost it. I scooped her up, a petite, tiny little thing, and I just shook her, I mean, violently shook her, and crying, and yelling all at the same time, saying, "You have to stay in your room. I need sleep. Why don't you mind mommy?" And when I got closer to her bed, I threw her on her bed.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
This is a story that I want to tell because so many moms, this really touches a chord with moms. I didn't plop her. I didn't place her. I threw her onto the bed, and she hit the wall. And immediately what did I feel? Guilt.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Ah, yes, yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Immediately. I love my child.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You very well could've done serious damage to that child.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, I could've. I stepped towards her, and she cowered. That immediately I'm thinking of the eight-year-old girl that I was who said, "Lord, please let me have children.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I think is that the place ... You mention in your book that you wrote in your journal-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... the day you had really lost it. Is that the occasion?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes, that is the day.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You've got it in your book. Can you lay your hands on it there?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Sure can. I wrote this in that day that that happened, immediately wrote this in my journal that evening. "I am so ashamed of who I am at times. I pray for mercy. God, please withhold your rightful anger from me. I was so angry at Kristen today. Now I am literally sick to my stomach. Where does this fury come from? How on earth can a two-year-old make me so crazy? It's as if I had become someone else. I never thought I would become like this as a mom. Does this come from sin? Is it just me? Is it a lack of love? Oh, God, is it possible I don't love my child? I want to be a mother who isn't like this. What a horrible, ugly mess. Where does this come from?"<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Those are agonizing questions, aren't they?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: They are. Did I not love my child? You know, I have a plan. If there's a fire, this is how I'm going to get the kids out. When we're on the street, I'm aware of the traffic. I would lay down my life for my children. And yet, anger had such a part in the early years that I questioned, because there had to be a reason for this. Could it be that I didn't love my child? Because what kind of mother who loves her child would do this?<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Who did you talk to about it, Julie? Did you tell your husband?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: You know, I didn't.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Did you have a friend that you could tell? I mean, you were in danger of abusing your children, you know that's-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Well, and that was abuse.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Of course it was.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I mean, Webster's defines it as excessive or inappropriate behavior. And this is one of the things I want moms to hear is that we can act excessively and inappropriately, and that is abuse. You know, two weeks after this occurred, I read in the newspaper of a woman who threw her child in anger, and the child hit a metal curtain rod. It pierced her temple, and it killed the child, two weeks after this. So actually, I had a Bible study group at the time, and I went and I just dumped on them. I love those women with all my heart, and they love me, but they didn't know what to do with that. There was absolutely-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: None of them admitted to have-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: No one admitted it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: They just weren't telling you. Some of them had to have gone through the same thing.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, yes, but that's-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: This is not something we want to admit, is it?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: No, and it's shame, regret, and self-condemnation. It's a cycle. I mean, those are the three things that I lived with day in and day out. You know, I'd have good days, and we'd have ... A good day is if I didn't have those three emotions at the end of the day, so-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: When you speak, Julie, what happens? When you open up and say these things, what happens?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, boy. The barriers just fall. I like to use humor, and one of the things I will always do is have everyone hold hands. I'll say, "You know, I want you to say, 'I am not alone,' because you know, there's ... Raise your hand if you thought you were going to be the only person here today. You know, there's always someone." Now, I am not alone, so you say that. Then, you look at someone and you say, "You are not alone." Just the power of that, just knowing that there's someone else struggling ... And look, this mom looks normal just like me, and yet she's struggling with these emotions.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You talk largely or most commonly to women. Is that right?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes, yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And you titled your book She's Gonna Blow! Now, everybody knows men get angry, too. Why She's Gonna Blow!?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Because this is the book I wanted to read 12 years ago. I literally went to book stores and would ask the male manager, usually, of the book store, I said, "Where's your section for angry, irritated mothers who wish they'd never had children?" And then they wouldn't know what to do with that, and that's what I wanted. I just wanted a book for moms that are struggling with that.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, it's very appropriate. Men get angry over other things.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly. You know, what I have found interesting is that I've had men write me and called me who have read the book and recognize that their wife is struggling with this. She doesn't recognize it, but he has seen it being played out and wants to know, "How can I approach her? What can I take into consideration and what's going on in her life?"<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Link it to PMS, Julie. Do you talk about that when you talk-?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, that's all part of the, yeah, of the things that play into it. And one of the suggestions I have is ... And I have trained my children from day one that they can honor and respect the fact that I am female and I hormonal, so we're going to have to all deal with it, you know?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Be careful today.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: We're either going to deal with it or deal with it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Watch out.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly. One of my ideas. You know, maybe this, we can get this off the ground here today, but it's a ther-mama-meter, and I would just love it to put a magnet that you can move, increase the temperature. So really, when your three-year-old comes down, he can have an awareness that that red is up here.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yeah, don't push mom too far today.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Right. So just be careful. And to have your husband to understand that and to honor that.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, it's also important for you to understand it.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And know what's going on.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: But you know, I think we know that as women, but maybe its teased about, or joked about, or we just don't honor ourselves enough to say-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yeah, but a lot of time women resent that. "You think it's just because it's premenstrual tension. That's what you think's going on. That's not true. I have a reason to be angry," and they defend it. You know what I'm talking about?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I know what you're talking about. See, I embrace it. I'm like, "I'm PMS 28 days out of the month." That's [inaudible 00:14:53]<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Oh, come on. That's a [inaudible 00:14:55] crutch. Julie, how big a problem is this?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, I think it's huge. And you know, I wrote this book for the Christian women. I mean, it's big outside of the Christian circles, but boy, I think within our church system, we like things neat and tidy, Dr. Dobson. We like steps, and formulas, and strategies, and you do all these seven things and bada bing, bada bang, it's solved. And I'm here to say this is a journey. This is a journey. And really, seven years from the time I truly recognized and said, "God, help me. I have got to change," to when I realized, "My gosh. I'm not reacting the way that I would've four years ago or three years ago," that type of thing.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: So, this is a dirty little secret-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: It is.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... in the homes and families even of those who are deeply committed to Christ.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, it is. I think the things that kind of factor into it is because, boy, then we get into the discipline issue. You know, my argument is not spanking versus not spanking. My issue is some of us don't have any business spanking-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That's right.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: ... our children because we have no control.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I've written that many times.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: You have.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: If this is a problem for you, don't even go there.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly. But you know, we can get that pressure with our friends and our church families that: 'This is how you take care of it.' And you know, Ricky is a perfect example, my second born. In the womb, he moved. I swear I could open my mouth and see his elbow. He was all over the place. And he was born and he was bellowing, I mean, the moment we pushed him out. And my goal with Ricky was to fix him the first four years of his life. That was it. There was something wrong with him. He was just like his dad's side of the family, and he needed to be fixed. That was my heart. That was my attitude that there's something wrong.<br />
<br />
I went to a conference, Hearts at Home conference, and a speaker was talking about family dynamics and temperaments. That was the day when the Lord broke my heart. And for me, I realized Ricky's just like me. He's a sanguine. He likes to be life of the party and control things. But, that was the first day that my heart, I'm not lying, it melted, and I loved him for who he is and embraced him.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You know, in my book, Bringing Up Boys, I talked about the fact that many mothers see something in their sons that they don't recall in themselves because males are different than females, and they do feel that the boys need to be fixed. That's a very common maternal attitude towards boys, especially those that are climbing on things, and into things, and challenging, and competitive, and messy, and noisy, and all of that combined. So, they set out to fix them, but you can't fix that masculine behavior.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: No.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And in fact, if you try, you'll mess them up.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Well, let me give you a perfect story. He was four years old. He was downstairs in our basement with his best friend Collin and his sister Kristen, and it was an idyllic day. I mean, it was ... I had made Toll House cookies. Patrick had just woken up for nap. He was on my hip. I had red and white gingham-checked curtains. I mean, it was just perfect. The doorbell rings at our house, and we live in a town of 496 people, so the county sheriff has to come about 35 miles to our house. It's the county sheriff at my front door. He's like, "Ma'am, are you okay," through the screen door. I'm like, "I'm fine." He goes, "Well, we got a 911 call from this residence."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Oh, my.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And then we tried to call back, and someone didn't hang up the line. So, he said, "I just came 75 miles an hour from McComb to check on things." And ding, you know, this light bulb. I said, I've got somebody you need to talk to. So, I take him downstairs. I go first, and I ... You know, you can hear 'em scurrying, trying to hide. This sheriff, he comes out and he goes, "You kids come out right now," and I mean all three of 'em, they just came out. He said, "Who called 911?" And Kristen and Collin finked him out. I mean, there was no loyalty.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And this is what my son did. He stood and looked that sheriff straight in the eye, and I saw his shoulders go back and his chin go up. I would've wet my pants if I was four years old and there was a sheriff there.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: He took him on.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: That was a turning point also. That's when I realized - he's got his issues with authority, but, my harshness with him, because well-meaning family had said over the years, "You have got to rein him in. You cannot let him run over you. If you don't control him now, he's going to control you later." Well, I saw a hardness in Ricky Neil at age four that scared me, Dr. Dobson. I mean, I literally that night thought, "He's going to be in a federal penitentiary one day if something doesn't happen."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You do need to rein him in, but you can't do it all at once-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And you can't crush him.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... and you can't do it with anger.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly. And break him like that.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yeah, you just set up boundaries. That's a subject that I've dealt with. In your book, She's Gonna Blow! - and that's what we're talking about today - Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger, what a practical book. In it, you talk about the warning signs of anger-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes, yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... where people around you and children can begin to get, and especially the person who's inclined to get angry, can begin to recognize in herself that she's getting close to the line. What are those warning signs?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I like to kind of liken it to the smaller earthquakes before a volcano actually explodes. There are just hundreds of smaller earthquakes. And I got to thinking one day, "You know, I ... " You just don't wake up as a mother and go, "You know, I want to be an angry, mean mother today." I mean, you start off and you mean well, but sometimes you're not even allowed to wake up peacefully. You know, it's a screaming child, or it's a kid hanging over your head at 3:30 going, "I think I'm going to throw up." I mean, and that's how your day starts.<br />
<br />
So, I got to thinking, "What are some of the warnings signs? What are these smaller earthquakes?" Laundry is one that women relate to. It's never done. It's always there. Then, they get older where you can try and help them get them to help with the folding and all that. Well, then you have to ... You can't delegate them to underwear duty because then they start making fun of everybody's underwear and all those kind of things. They start fighting, and you start getting angry at that. But, just these little things every day, the laundry that has to be done.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
I remember the day I caught myself pulling a bowl out of my kitchen cabinet when I had company, and I ran my hand across the bowl for the crumble, the mess factor on it. You know when you hold a glass up and like, "Okay. It's good enough to go," and that bothered me because I liked neat, and clean, tidy. I talk about Cheerios between the toes, the fact that one night I went to get a glass of water for a thirsty child. I had seven Cheerios stuck between my toes walking across. I know. And someone said, "Why don't you wear house slippers?" Like I did that. That helped, you know? But just the-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: How about sticky phones?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You pick up the phone and there's honey on it or there's ...<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: What I find so amusing is that your ability to deal with crud, you know, with every child seems to just everything a little bit more and a little bit more.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Are you an orderly person?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I was an orderly person, but-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You just didn't like chaos of any sort.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: No, and I liked neat and tidy. I was an only child. I never had to share. I didn't get that a lot of times. Then, you bring kids into the mix and trying to keep ... And those seem insignificant, but from the first time you wake up and you walk down and you see the kitchen and you're like, "Oh, man. Look at this kitchen-"<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Julie, I just looked at the clock. We're out of time, and we got a lot more to talk about. I stopped you virtually in the middle of a sentence. Let's just come back tomorrow and let's take another run at it.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: It'd be great.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: We're going to pick up right here. I appreciate what you're doing. I think you're providing a real service for the moms that are out there. And anything that is a service for moms is a service for dads and children, too. So, thank you for writing the book. It is She's Gonna Blow!: Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger. Thanks for being with us. We'll talk next time.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Great being here.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Those are some incredible insights into the frustrations that parents experience on a daily basis. And this is Family Talk, and you've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's interview with author Julie Barnhill. Now, if you could relate to what was being talked about today, you want to get your hands on a copy of the book by Julie Barnhill called She's Gonna Blow! It's a popular book that really speaks to parents who struggle with remaining in control through stressful circumstances. I just love that title. Find a link for that book on our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Thanks so much for tuning in today, and thanks for your prayers and faithful financial support of Family Talk. If you didn't already know, Family Talk is completely funded by you, our faithful listeners. Every tax-deductible donation you make has an eternal impact on the marriages and families that we are ministering to. You can learn how you can partner with us here in 2019 when you visit our website at drjamesdobson.org or by calling (877) 732-6825. Dr. Dobson and all of us here at Family Talk are so very grateful for your faithful generosity.<br />
<br />
Well, be sure to join us again tomorrow as we end our week with the conclusion of Dr. James Dobson's conversation with Julie Barnhill. They'll discuss how women's emotions build up under the surface and why every parent must afford themselves grace. I'm Roger Marsh, and I hope you'll be with us for that conversation right here next time on Family Talk. Have a blessed day, everyone.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Dr. Tim Clinton: Hi, everyone. Dr. Tim Clinton here. When you think about your family and where they'll be when you're no longer living, are you worried? Are you confident? You hopeful? What kind of a legacy are you leaving for your children and their children right now? Here at Family Talk we're committed to helping you understand the legacy that you're leaving your family. Join us today at drjamesdobson.org. You're going to find helpful insights, tips, and advice from Dr. Dobson himself. And remember, your legacy matters.&nbsp;<br />
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<br />
Roger Marsh: Well, hello everyone and welcome to Family Talk, the radio broadcast division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh and I'm so glad you've joined us today. You're about to hear the conclusion of a conversation on the topic of handling anger as a mom. Dr. Dobson's guest on this classic broadcast was writer and speaker, Julie Barnhill, author of the book, She's Gonna Blow.&nbsp;<br />
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Now yesterday, Julie explained how exhaustion and loneliness can lead to sudden outbursts of rage and frustration. Julie also shared of the time when she threw her daughter onto a bed and the guilt that she felt afterwards.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I am so ashamed of who I am at times. I pray for mercy. God, please withhold your rightful anger for me. I was so angry at Kristen today. Now, I am literally sick to my stomach. Where does this fury come from? How on earth can a two year old make me so crazy? It's as if I have become someone else. I never thought I would become like this as a mom. Does this come from sin? Is it just me? Is it a lack of love? Oh God, is it possible I don't love my child? I want to be a mother who isn't like this. What a horrible, ugly mess. Where does this come from?<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Well that feeling of failure and regret haunts many parents following a breakdown with their kids. Well today, Julie Barnhill and Dr. James Dobson will continue discussing the causes of emotional buildup and how anger connects to depression. They'll also explore the need for self-assessment and why parents must forgive themselves for past mistakes. Here now is the conclusion of their challenging conversation, on this edition of Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Julie has written a wonderful book, and in fact, I just love the title. It's She's Gonna Blow! Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger. It's already been immensely successful and for good reason. There are just lots of moms out there who have trouble with explosive anger, especially when their children are very young. Julie has been very candid about her own struggles and what she's learned. She's a popular speaker and a former school teacher. She and her husband, Rick, live in Illinois and they have three children. I was very involved in the interview with Julie and the time did get away from us, so it's really good to have her back.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
I have dealt with so many families over the years and this matter of anger is a pervasive problem. I talked about it in my first film series and that was 1979. Just imagine a young mother with little children just pushing her all day long, and these kids are making messes, and they definitely do not want to do what the mother is telling them to do. It is really very difficult, especially when you don't have the tools, or the know-how to deal with that frustration and anger.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Many mothers of small children are very young themselves. They're 20, 21, 22, 23 and don't, in some cases, have control of their own emotions and then they get pushed over the line and that's where child abuse comes from. So it's very, very important that we give those parents some tools, some understanding of how to deal, not only with the child's behavioral problems, but with their own emotions as well. Especially when you've got a strong-willed child, or an ADD child that is going to push you as far as possible. 'Cause she would give her life for those children, she would. She'd lay down her life for them, and yet she acts like that.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
If she's a Christian mom, she certainly knows that she shouldn't be responding that way. And so, there are just many women out there who find themselves kind of in this trap where they have overwhelming guilt but don't know how to deal with it.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Now, Julie said last time that her book is partly autobiographical. She's been there, and she's had to deal with it personally and that's why what she writes has such a ring of truth to it. Julie, you speak all over the country, you've been on national television repeatedly, and you're out there meeting people. You hear the affirmation that I'm talking about, don't you?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Absolutely. I probably have 1200 or 1500 emails on my computer at home from moms. I get, on average, two to three a week.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: In your book, you talk about styles of blowing up, if you will, related to a volcano-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes, little Mount Momma.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... and four types of volcanoes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Describe 'em very quickly.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Well, the first one, the Hawaiian, which is the Discovery Channel. The real pretty volcano that just slowly kind of-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Seethes.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: ... blubs over and it doesn't look that dangerous, but it slowly just takes over the landscape. It's black and crusty on the top and underneath is this volatile lava.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And that is nagging the children-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... and being upset at 'em all the time.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Kind of passive-aggressive behavior that we can have and, yeah, our negativity. And often, a mother maybe who's like that is the one who says, "I don't have a problem with anger. I'm just concerned about this or I'm just trying to do this."<br />
<br />
The second type, and these progressively more dramatic. The second is the Vulcanian and more solid pieces come out of a vulcanian eruption.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
The Stromboli, which is on the island of Stromboli, Italy and it just goes off the same time every day. I mean, tourists come and put their yard chairs out there and watch it, you just know. Same bat time, same bat channel. You know when you blowup, and your children know that. And a lot of times, I think we say, "Well, you know, it's just the way I am and there's nothing we can do about that."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
And then the final one, which is the one that we're all scared to death of and we don't want to talk about, and is really where I was when I threw Kristin that day, is the Pelean, which is the Mount St. Helens, when there's just utter destruction. We've read the stories of mothers who have, in one act of irrational anger, have harmed their children. Sometimes that has been fatal, that we've heard those and that terrifies to the core of our being as mothers.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Julie, we're talking to people who fall in all four of those categories now and they're glued to the radio because they find themselves there and they don't know what to do about it. They don't know where to start.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
First of all, what's going on? What's causing the buildup of lava, the magma as it's called, down underneath that's gonna blow?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I have found there's different pressures that we need to look at in that and one of those main ones, and you know this, Dr. Dobson, is the pressure of the past. This is what you don't know until you're there: how your childhood and all those things play into that.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
I shared earlier that I am adopted. I was adopted at age three or four, and for 27 years, I truly believed that adoption did not affect me adversely in any way. The family that adopted me, I was prized and cherished and just an only child. It was perfect, a princess-type thing.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
So, I had Kristin and I start feeling like I want to leave her. I want to flee from this and I didn't know where that came from, so I just pushed that down. I didn't even acknowledge that to myself. And then Ricky Neil was born, and when I was 27 years old, the phone rang one day in my house. It was my birth father. I do, to this day, do not know how he found my number, and boy, did that set off ... Oh gosh, that set off some things that I had no idea was inside of me.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: So there are experiences from the past that are down there that haven't been dealt with.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly, exactly and maybe divorce, you're a family of divorce. Or maybe you've experienced abuse as a child growing up, and you swear you're not gonna do that, or you think you've gotten that behind you. Those kids come in and just start kinda pushin' some buttons, and you find that coming in.<br />
<br />
The second pressure I find are what I call the pressures from within. And boy, what I want to say and as I was writing this book and as I was going through some counseling, the thing that really resonated with me that I sense the Lord wanted me to understand is how marvelously complex I am as a woman. I think sometimes, we fail to think about that. I ask mothers when I speak, I'll say, "How many times a day do you think you bend down, just bend from the knees? How many times a day do you just pick up a child, physically, the things that you're doing?" Hormonally how complex we are. Every day the level's different. And then you bring in the finances, and you bring in the relationship you're trying to keep with your husband and all of these things, and that pressure.<br />
<br />
And then, the third pressure would be the child, itself. I say, it's just three things, just three things: The things they say, the things they do, and the way that they are.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That's enough, right?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: It's no big deal. Yeah, exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: It's really strange within a Christian community that some diseases are okay to have and they're okay to be treated with medications, and other diseases are somehow un-Christian and somehow contradictory to what we believe. Depression is one of those things. "Christians shouldn't feel depressed." Well, the truth of the matter is, as you said, Julie, we are very complex human beings and if there are medications that help, as long as they're properly taken and properly supervised and not done to excess and that they're right for that circumstance, it is no more wrong to take that medication than it would if you had an infection and you were taking an antibiotic. It's really kinda silly to think this one's okay and that one's not. But I think the reason people stand and cheer is for that reason right there because you're saying that I needed that and somebody needed to tell me it was okay.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: That's exactly it. I've interviewed enough that sometimes people are like, "Oh, Julie, these stories, is it really hard to tell these stories?" And I said, "You know, God just gave me that gene where it's okay." I mean, I like to say what that woman has thought and is unable to say.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You're being helpful to people because you've allowed people to see the person inside.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Right.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And if you don't do that, you don't touch 'em at all.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: No, and what benefit are we and this will speak of the grace. I will say this to women, if we would just be grace-filled to one another. You can blame males and you can blame the culture and all that, but we hold within our grasp the ability to change this with women to women. And if would just be gracious ... Think about church, Dr. Dobson, when there's a baby in the back of the auditorium and crying and interrupting and you're not hearing the sermon. You're thinking, we have a perfectly good nursery, why don't they go put that kid in the nursery. We will turn and crane our necks to see that child and that mother knows every eye is on her. Also, there's that message, why don't you have that kid in the nursery, or if they're in here, why don't you make them behave? I just say, "Grace says, 'don't turn around. Don't look.'"&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: She's struggling enough as it is.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: She's struggling. Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: She hears it.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: She knows what's going on.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: She knows. She can see it.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, let's talk specifically to the woman out there who is so guilt-ridden today. In fact, to illustrate the situation that she's in and the way she feels, I have asked for a little short recording, a little clip, to be queued up for us today that was actually part of a Renewing the Heart Broadcast. This call could have come from a million women today, but here's one of 'em.<br />
<br />
Female caller: I have been very angry in the past 10 years. And just this week, God has shown me that he wants to use me and he wants to use my mouth, but he can't until I get rid of the anger.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I would like to have talked to her myself. I would like to have found out a little more about what her background is and why she is feeling the way she is. What would you say to her?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Boy, the first thing is, we all know that it's wrong. We don't need anybody preaching at us and telling us, we know that. The first thing, boy, is that grace, is that grace. The scripture verse that I have held onto all my years of mothering, 2 Timothy 2:13, "When we are faithless, he remains faithful; for he cannot deny Himself." He is faithful. He loves us.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
And Dr. Dobson, the reality is, is that he is crazy about us. God is crazy about us as women. Not just as a mother, not to be a good mom, not to be a great wife and a dynamic speaker and all those things-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: He loved us enough to die for us.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes, and he loves us and he is crazy about me. I tell mothers, and I would tell this mother, that same love that you have when you held that baby, the same way that you look forward to seeing that child when you've been away for just a few hours or a time; that is the same love times X, infinity and beyond, that God has for us.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Do you hear the condemnation in her voice?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, she knows it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yeah, she knows it.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: She knows it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: She knows what she's doing is not right, but I don't know that she feels that God has any understanding at all of her or what is going on inside of her.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And that he can use her, until I get fixed. I mean, that's kind of what I heard. When I get things fixed then he can use me. I have just found that, boy, he will use us right there. I tell moms, and I would tell her, one thing, you just choose the one thing that you want to do and if that's ... Sarcasm was a big thing for me and the way I spoke towards my children. I'd say, "Yeah, good job, Einstein." That was something I said a lot and I said that out loud and I said, "Lord, help me remove that from my speech pattern." And I worked on that one thing for weeks and weeks and weeks.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Would you agree that this woman needs to take to somebody?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, absolutely.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: She needs to talk to a pastor-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And someone with wisdom. Exactly. Not-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... Or a counselor, somebody who really does understand what's going on here.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I don't think you know this, but I called twice into counseling.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Did you really? Is that right.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Right after my birth father called, I called. And here's the thing, I think it takes so much nerve to call, and then you think, "Okay, I need to get it all in within 45 seconds. What if they think I'm boring or this is stupid." That counselor, and I think he talked to me over an hour, and I have his name somewhere 'cause I record and journal, and I spoke with him. He simply gave me some hope.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
And then after Shirley, after you all aired a tape one time of Shirley's background with the alcoholism and her family, I called again and that counselor said, "You know, Julie, you are a survivor of alcoholic parents." And I never believed that since I never lived with them, but there are ramifications of that.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: What else do you recommend for that mother that's blowing, that's just not able to control it?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Well, I like to, first of all, that nothing is unforgivable. So to start there and to go in prayer and say, "God, you know how ugly it is, and I want forgiveness for this, and I want change for this, and give me a heart for my children."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Another thing, I like to talk to moms about: let it go. The power of three words, "let it go", 'cause that's grace summarized. There are schedules, that sometimes we blowin' it in at anger in the minivan, I'm telling you. And in the church parking lot on Sunday morning, it's just unreal what can go on. I say, "Choose the best, let go of the rest."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Here's the thing though, we're all doing, what we're doing is usually all good things, but we really do have to choose the best thing. Because if I'm wiggin' out and I'm irritated and resenting my children because all I'm doing is chauffeuring them around and I'm losing my temper, what effect is that? This is what we did, we cut back and I homeschooled actually. I mean, talk about a dramatic thing, but I wanted to have a heart for my children again and I homeschooled.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
The first year was horrible, absolutely horrible. The second year was better, the third year was sublime. It was just wonderful and it gave me a tenderness and a love for my children. We have cut back on the extra activities. Guess what? If Joe Bob doesn't play soccer as a four year old, it's not gonna stunt his professional career. This isn't anything that you haven't had other people say and you haven't said, but it's kind of one of those "Hello". If that's part of the problem then we have to do that.<br />
<br />
I like to do proactive things that we can do with our children. One of the things I love to tell moms to do, ask them to do, is to play a game called, "I love you more than." Patrick, my youngest, he was really pretty irritated that he didn't have any stories in this book and he came to me as I was finishing up the manuscript 'cause I read it to the kids and made sure everything was okay to print. And he had his arms crossed and he said, "Mom, where are all my stories?" And I said, "Well, Patrick, by the time you came along, I kind of had this thing going a little bit better." And, he pouted and he looked at me and he goes, "Mom, I love you more than pigs in ice cream." And, then he just took off running. Patrick and I have this running dialog, I love you more than Pepsi, I love you more than chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I played the same game with my daughter-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Really.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... and it was at the end of every day. It was at night right before she went to sleep and it got wider and wider and wider-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... and the last thing was the first one to get to I love you more than the whole universe and there wasn't anything else after you said-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Trump that. Yeah, you can't do it.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Let's recap here what we've got so far. First of all, the spiritual help. You gotta deal with your relationship with the Lord, 'cause he's there, and he cares, and he will help. And prayer.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
The second is to deal with fatigue. I am absolutely convinced that the American way of life is responsible for the greatest portion of all this because when you're totally worn out, you have no reserve. It's like an army with no reserve unit and you fight on the front lines and then you collapse because there's nothing left, and you mentioned that.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
The third is medication, and there is a place for that, so you need a good physician who will talk you through this.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
The fourth is counseling. You didn't mention getting the husband involved in that counseling situation, but I think he needs to understand you. He needs to know in a little more detail than you shared at the time of what you were going through-&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Absolutely.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... because he can be a resource for you. If he's understanding and compassionate, so you might drag him along with. And in fact, he may be the cause of some of the anger or the depression, so you need to work through that.<br />
<br />
And fifth, the matter of understanding. We talked the first day about PMS. We talked about the complex chemistry of the body. It helps to understand what's going on and then preparing for it. Not dealing with big, heavy things at night. Shirley and I-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... have an absolute policy. When we're worn out, it's 10 o'clock at night and something is really been bothering both of us, I will not talk about that till the morning. And so, in the morning, we can deal with it. At night, it's a lot harder. There's some tips like that of things that you can learn. Anything else you want to suggest?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: A part of that last one is to know your child-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Absolutely.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: ... to know their personality. We study so many things, but do we study our children and to parent accordingly. You have said this, I've heard you say this, "You cannot parent every child the same way."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: The same way.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Boy, we need to get that through our heads, and we interact differently with each child. It doesn't mean you love one more or love one less, it's just how you are with that individual child.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Julie, another very, very useful and practical and fun broadcast today. This is our second day. The name of the book is She's Gonna Blow! Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger, Julie Ann Barnhill. And a lot of people have endorsed her, recommended this book. You are available to speak around the country.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Absolutely, yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That ought to wear you out. You'll be depressed again.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, no.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: But you really have a sense of mission about this, don't you?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I do, I do and it energizes me. I just want women and fathers and foster care, grandparents, so many ... We didn't talk about that at all, but so many grandparents who are having to raise children, their grandchildren.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Oh boy, that's a tough one.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I really do wish we had time to talk about that today because there are many people out there in that situation. They thought they had their job done as parents and then they wind up raising yet another generation. But we're simply out of time, so, Julie, we're gonna have to save that topic for another day.<br />
<br />
I just want to say that I appreciate so much you taking the time to be our guest, but most of all, I value your heart and your candor in helping mothers and your own openness about your struggles in this area. That honestly is gonna be very helpful to many mothers today. Thank you, Julie.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: It's been a pleasure.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Well, that is certainly an honest conversation on the topic of controlling your anger as a parent. After listening to today's broadcast, I hope that you realize that there are no perfect parents. Everyone struggles and messes up from time to time. You can learn from your mistakes and allow grace to remove the guilt that maybe plaguing your life though.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
And when you visit our Broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org, you'll find a link for Julie Barnhill's helpful book on this topic. It's titled, She's Gonna Blow. There, you can also listen to the first part of their conversation from yesterday's broadcast. You'll find all that and much more at drjamesdobson.org and then click onto the Broadcast page.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Are you tired of missing our broadcast while you're in the car or working around the house? Well, you can take advantage of our easy-to-use station finder feature and solve that problem once and for all. Go to drjamesdobson.org, then click the Family Talk radio station's button under the Broadcast menu. Once you're there, you'll see our new interactive map of radio affiliates and there are lots of them. Simply click on to your home state to see where and when our show will be airing near you. You can stop aimlessly scanning the radio hoping to find Dr. Dobson and Family Talk. Give yourself a break and use our helpful station finder feature when you go to drjamesdobson.org. You'll be glad you did.<br />
<br />
Well, that's all the time we have for this week of broadcasts here on Family talk. Join us Monday as we honor Sanctity of Human Life week with meaningful broadcasts on that topic that you will definitely appreciate. I hope you'll be with us next time, right here for more of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh, wishing you and yours a blessed weekend.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Tim Clinton: Hi, this is Dr. Tim Clinton. Thanks for listening to Family Talk. You going through a tough time right now? Can't see your way out? You think there's no hope? We'd love to talk to you. I want you to know this, Dr. Dobson has been doing this for a long time and he really cares about you so much that we'd love to talk to you right now. You can actually call us, toll-free. Our number is 877-732-6825. You're gonna be encouraged, you're gonna be challenged, you're gonna find new hope. You know why? 'Cause God really does care about you. He loves you and Dr. Dobson cares about you too. Call us now, 877-732-6825.<br />"
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Roger Marsh: In Ephesians Chapter 5, Paul tasks husbands with the responsibility to be the spiritual leader in the household. However, many men today are either unable or unwilling to step into this position. You're listening to Family Talk, a production of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, along with your host, psychologist and best-selling author Dr. James Dobson.<br />
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In a few minutes we will conclude Dr. Dobson's classic conversation with Lee and Leslie Strobel. Over the past couple of programs, they've been sharing how their marriage endured spiritual imbalance after Leslie became a Christian and Lee wasn't. Today the Strobel's address how couples can support and promote each other's spiritual walk.<br />
<br />
Now to quickly remind you about our guests, Lee Strobel is a recognized Christian apologist, author and speaker. He previously worked at the Chicago tribune where he was a decorated investigative journalist. Lee is also a New York Times best-selling author with over 10 million copies of his books sold. Lee and his wife Leslie co-authored the book 'Spiritual Mismatch' which is what we're talking about on today's program.<br />
<br />
Okay here now is the conclusion of this conversation with Dr. James Dobson on this edition of Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well Lee and Leslie we were talking off microphone about something that I want to let our listeners hear. About a cultural phenomenon. The fact that women don't like to eat alone, they're kind of embarrassed if they're not in the company of a man. I know that frustrates the feminist but I understand why.<br />
<br />
And then when that's applied to a marriage that is unequally yoked, a woman may go to church alone but not feel totally comfortable there.<br />
<br />
Leslie Strobel: Right.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Have you observed that?<br />
<br />
Leslie Strobel: Absolutely. Church is a family oriented place and you tend to think of families going to church. I remember one time I went, Lee wasn't going with me and I got the kids in the Sunday school and I would go into the sanctuary and kind of look around for another woman sitting alone just so I might be with someone who would relate.<br />
<br />
And so this one time I sat down next to this lady and we started talking a little bit and she asked where my husband was, was he taking the kids to the Sunday School and I said, "Oh no, he doesn't come with me." And I could see her whole demeanor change and she just sort of went, "Oh." And she didn't quite know how to respond and in a minute her husband arrived, he had been an usher or something and serving and sat down next to her. And they just didn't ever pay much attention to me after that.<br />
<br />
And at the time I couldn't decide if it was my own uncomfortable feelings that were projecting maybe something different, but I had talked to women in the past about that, that there is a little bit of a bias often times in churches, where you do expect families to be a part and when there's someone who's either single or married but her husband isn't with her, that that sometimes causes them not quite knowing how to handle you.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And Leslie what a shame that is because you were desperately in need of support and counsel and scripture and love and acceptance, especially in a church.<br />
<br />
Leslie Strobel: And this was at a time before I was involved in a Bible Study, I was looking for Christian women just to have someone in my life.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: It's a great reminder for those who are listening that are Christians and you know they're saying, "Well does this really relate to me because I am married to a believer?" Well one thing you can do is reach out to women and men who are unequally yoked. And when you encounter them at church to be sensitive to that and to realize that they're going through very difficult times.<br />
<br />
It's a tension filled time in their marriage, they're feeling alone, they're feeling vulnerable and what a great time for us as believers to enfold them and to encourage them and to pray for them and with them. So it'd be a ministry for everybody who is listening to say, "Well I can at least do that."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You know I used to teach a very large Sunday School class of young adults, young married couples, and it used to really bother me that people would come to the church who were visitors and I would watch them come in alone and sit down, and everybody would be, before the service started, talking with their friends, they hadn't seen them in a week or two, and leave these people standing out there alone.<br />
<br />
And we had 400 people that came through that class in one year and I remember saying, those people, many of them, came here and gave you one chance to say that we need you here. They didn't come because of me, they didn't come because of the pastor, they didn't come because of the theology of the church, they didn't come because of location. They came saying, "Is this a place where I would be accepted? And can we make some friends here? Would we be comfortable here?" And then you go out there and talk to your friends and leave these people standing there, I used to rail at my class over that. Because we lost some of those people and they never came back.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: What a ministry we can all have to just do that simple thing, just be, enfold people emotionally and just say, "You know what, I'm sorry your husband doesn't come with you but let me just pray for you and encourage you."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, we have had two programs with you folks. I feel so strongly about what you've been saying, it's really bed rock material for Christian families.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: It's almost a different way of being unequally yoked, you're yoked to someone who is not as spiritually mature, who's lagging behind, I'd say three things about that. Number one, you have to ask yourself the question, could it be that my spouse is not really a believer? You have to ask that question. If they have no interest in growth spiritually, you don't see a difference in their character and values, if they're not going through a process of becoming more Christ like over time.<br />
<br />
You have to ask yourself, they may say the right things and believe the right things but John 1:12 says, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God even to those who believed in His name." Believing in and of itself is not enough. There has to be a point in time where we receive Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior. We receive this free gift of forgiveness and eternal life that He purchased when He died on the cross as our substitute to pay for all of our wrong doing, past, present and future.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Which changes everything.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: That changes everything. And we have to ask, could it be that my spouse is lagging because they're not really a born again believer? And so sometimes I'll use that verse as a diagnostic and you get in a conversation, and you say, "that verse forms an equation of what it means to become a believer, believe plus receive equals become. Honey, I'm concerned. I don't see a lot of change in you, I don't see a desire to grow in your relationship with Christ, I just want to raise the question &mdash; "<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: To which he says, "You're judging me."<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: You know what, it could be, but you know you've planted a piece of sand in his shoe and it's going to bug him now because you've raised the question and he may grouse and he may react negatively but you know what? I bet there's something in his spirit that eventually he's going to say, "You know what, she's right, I need to get serious here and I really need to give my life to Christ."<br />
<br />
So that's one thing I'd say. The other thing I'd say is, every church is not for every person. And you may be in a church that you are doing great spiritually and you got friends and you really sync up with the pastor and this is a wonderful community for you, it may not be ideal for your spouse.<br />
<br />
And you know what, I think sometimes you have to say, "Could it be because this church culture does not work well with where my spouse is coming from?" And it's okay to maybe say, "You know we need to find a church where we both can flourish." And you know I'd raise that question as well. And the other thing I'd say is, resist the temptation first to fault find, don't look down your nose at your spouse and shame them for not being spiritually more mature because that's only going to be a negative.<br />
<br />
The other thing is, don't project yourself onto your spouse. Because you may think that being a Christian is how I behave, you know. I'm an extrovert and I serve over here and I teach this class and I do these things, that's what Christians do because hey I'm a Christian, that's what I do. But my spouse is different, maybe my spouse is introverted.<br />
<br />
Maybe they're more intellectual, maybe they grow more in a quiet moment with God where they're reading scripture and God is feeding them through that experience and they're learning about history and archeology and that feeds them. And you think, well, they're not like me so they're not growing the same rate. Well, they may be growing in a different way. And we're all a little bit different, the way we grow in Christ.<br />
<br />
And so we got to cut each other some slack and say maybe it's just because my spouse ain't me, maybe that's the problem.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: But on the other hand, Leslie, I know that you have, in recent years, done a lot of one on one mentoring of women. Are you hearing the frustration we were talking about of women whose husbands who will not accept spiritual leadership. They may not even question his commitment to Christ, but those men may not step up and say, "Let's have our devotions tonight, let's pray before we go to bed. Or let's take this to the Lord. Or let's give of our resources."<br />
<br />
And they won't provide spiritual leadership for the children, which frustrates them too, don't you hear that a lot?<br />
<br />
Leslie Strobel: Exactly, absolutely. And I think that's a huge problem and I don't know exactly, I think what Lee has said is correct that you have to gently talk to your husband about that and just see if they can understand the necessity and how God calls men to be head of the home. And if you can point out how enriching that would be for children and for the whole family to have them do that, I believe men would be willing to step up and try it.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: It could be too that the church you're in is not teaching this. You go to some churches and they're staying away from that. This is all gender equality, no difference between men and women and they bought in to a lot of this cultural stuff and they don't emphasize the role of the man in the marriage relationship, in the family relationship.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: What is his role, Lee?<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Well he is the spiritual leader of the home and -<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: What does that mean?<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Well it means that he takes the lead in seeing to it that the entire family is nurtured spiritually. And it grows together in a Christ-like direction. And that doesn't mean you have to be a pastor or seminary trained, it doesn't mean you have to be heavy handed and boss people around, but it means you have a father's heart towards your spouse and towards your children to say, "I want to be like a shepherd that helps lead them into a deeper relationship with Christ and spiritual growth."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I was bating you a little bit there because I believe exactly what you believe.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Yeah and I was taught this by a very wise teacher once. He said, "Have you ever noticed how guys who want to get married and want to settle down, want to get the job done?" And they will, and I don't mean intentionally deceive people, but they will say to the girl they want to date who's a Christian, "Oh, of course I'm a Christian, oh yeah of course I believe in God, oh yeah me too."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
And they will kind of gloss, because they don't understand the importance here. They'll gloss over this stuff and they're trying to win this woman who they want to marry. And they will play games. And there are women who think that the, and sometimes the women will be in a position where they're not looking very deeply because they're in love with this guy, they like this guy, they don't want to find what they're afraid they're going to find.<br />
<br />
So they kind of gloss it over too. And then they get married and they find out, this guy didn't want to go to church anymore, he doesn't have any interest in growing spiritually, and you know what, he wasn't a believer in the first place. But they sort of fooled each other in the process. So I think the one thing that Christian men and women, young men and women ought to do is decide now.<br />
<br />
Do not become unequally yoked, that's what the Bible teaches, that's what God's word says, therefore I'm going to decide now, I'm not going to date someone who is not a committed follower of Jesus. Because whenever you date, it's a process, it's leading somewhere and you're going to get more emotionally entangled and you're going to go deeper with this other person and it's going to take you down a path and pretty soon if you allow yourself to date a non-believer, pretty soon you're going to go down the path too far, you're going to be in love and you're not going to want to pull out.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Thanks for spending some time with us. You're listening to Family Talk, a radio broadcast of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Dr. Tim Clinton, executive director of the institute and we've come to the midpoint of today's broadcast. On behalf of Dr. Dobson and all of us here at JDFI, I want to thank you for listening today, and, by the way for your continued support.<br />
<br />
We're completely supported by you, our faithful listeners. We would not be able to bring programs to you like the one you're listening to today without your generous contributions. Learn how you can stand with us by visiting drjamesdobson.org. Let's get back to today's broadcast right now. Here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: There is this great, powerful attraction between them. And you look for rationalizations for doing what you desperately want to do especially if you're needy and you're longing for marriage like many singles do. They're looking for that person.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: One of the things that we do in our book 'Surviving Spiritual Mismatch' is we try to help people, women especially, diagnose, as best they can, is this guy that I want to date really a believer? Look past what he claims, look past, and we have 15 questions that you can ask and I won't go through them all but I'll go through a few of them.<br />
<br />
First of all, can he describe a specific time or era during which he received Christ's gift of eternal life? If he were put on trial on a charge of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict him? When he talks about the future, does he mention God, is there room for God? What does he choose to feed his mind? Where does the compass of his heart naturally point?<br />
<br />
Who does he spend time with? You know, birds of a feather flock together, who are his friends? Are they believers? Does he possess humility? Is he honest about the little things in life. When you're at a restaurant and they give you the wrong check and it's $50 less than your check, does he quick, pay the check and get out and cheat the restaurant? Or does he do the right things about the little things in life?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Does he take responsibility for his actions? Does he care about people who don't know about Christ? Has he ever expressed an interest in that? Does he pray? Is he willing to postpone immediate gratification so that greater satisfaction can come in the future?<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Let me add one.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Yeah.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Is there any evidence of addictive behavior?<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Oh, that's a good one.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You're dating somebody who is a heavy drinker or you get little indication of vulnerability to pornography or to gambling or other things, run, don't walk, run away from him because he's trouble on the hoof.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Yeah, absolutely. How many times have, as a pastor, you sat with people who come in and their lives are absolutely wrecked because of a spouse who has an addictive personality, who has fallen into one of his traps? It's so sad, you're right to discern, is there any evidence of that in the relationship?<br />
<br />
I think we've kind of hinted this, sometimes it's a two way street, it's the guys who want to maybe implicitly deceive someone to thinking they're something they're not, but it's also the women who will say I'm going to overlook stuff because I want this guy, I like this guy. This guy is going to be a doctor someday, he's going to be successful and he treats me well, he's a nice guy.<br />
<br />
Well you know what? There are nice guys who are headed for hell. And there are nice guys who are not going to lead their family in a godly direction. You know? Are they committed followers of Christ, do you see growth in their life? What do they talk about? Do they ever, when they talk about imagining how your life might be together and get married someday, does God ever come up?<br />
<br />
Do they ever express an interest in spiritual matters unless you press them? Those are tough questions but boy, you'll regret it if you don't ask them.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Here's another one, are you going with somebody? Maybe you're a woman and going with a man who's trying to talk you into going to bed before marriage.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Well there's, exactly ...<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I mean talk about a red flag because if he'll do that with you, he'll do it with somebody else later on.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Absolutely. Are his actions consistent with scripture or are they, is he cutting corners? Is he drinking heavily, is he suggesting premarital sex? Is he pushing you on things that you know aren't right? Those are all signals. And they could be little things, it could be just maybe some transgressions or some lines of intimacy short of actually going to bed together.<br />
<br />
But, you know, he's going too far too fast and you go, woah, woah, woah, what's this guy really interested in here? We just have to open our eyes and I think for those listening it's like, you know, if you're a guy, and you're single, you know what the best thing you can do for your life and your future marriage is to grow in your relationship with Christ, to become spiritually mature.<br />
<br />
I mean make that your number one value and you know what, you will find the right woman. Because you're going to be hanging out in the right places, and you're going to be meeting the right people and God is going to arrange, when you're ready, for the right person to be there for you. And don't put yourself in a position, if you make the decision now, I am not going to do this, then when you're in the midst, your hormones are pumping and you're liking this guy and you're feeling drawn to and everything, then you're not making the decision.<br />
<br />
I already made this decision in the cool, the light of scripture and I'm going to live by it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: We have said several times in the course of the programs that we've done, that the principles that you taught in your book and that you've discussed with us here, come out of scripture but we haven't documented that.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Yeah.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And there is scripture in both 1 Corinthians 7 and in 2 Corinthians 6 that are relevant to what we're talking about. Would you share those scriptures with us?<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Yeah in 1 Corinthians it says specifically that if your spouse is not a believer but they're willing to remain married, then you should remain married. So having a non-believing spouse is not an excuse to say, okay I'm heading for divorce court.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Unless there's infidelity.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Yeah then it raises other questions, infidelity. Or, the scripture says, if they leave then you should let them go. Then 2 Corinthians 6:14-16 talk about being unequally yoked. And what that means is that we should not be in a relationship with a non-believer, like a marriage, because of all of the things we kind of talk about in our book, all of the negative fallout that will happen in your marriage if you are unequally yoked, if you're married to a non-believer.<br />
<br />
So, scripture specifically says, do not be married to an unbeliever. And there's one other relevant passage in 1 Peter 3:1-2 which talks about that wives, when you have a non-believing spouse, they're going to be won over by your behavior. By your purity and reverence in your life. That was Leslie, I mean, and that was a great example I think in her life of someone who lived a pure and a reverent life, being like a magnet for the non-believer.<br />
<br />
Now it wasn't a magnet without problems, in other words, I came kicking and screaming in many ways, but it was a magnet none the less. And I think you know again, scripture is so wise here in saying, it's not always the words that are going to do it, it's the attitude, it's the behavior, it's the purity of your life, it's your devotion to Christ that are going to eventually be attractive to the non-believer.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well the title of the book is 'Surviving a Spiritual Mismatch in Marriage.' It is an outstanding book and you've heard that the last three days. We've been talking about this content and there's a lot more here that we didn't get to. And I appreciate so much you all being with us for these three days. And this -<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Our pleasure.<br />
<br />
Leslie Strobel: Thanks for having us.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: This has been very uplifting to me, there's content here that I wanted to get across to our listeners and you've done it today. Leslie, thank you for being the Godly woman you are, thank you for hanging in there with this jerk until he found the Lord and became a spiritual leader to the whole Christian community. I mean it's amazing, you must be, again, shocked how God is using him.<br />
<br />
Leslie Strobel: It's quite a ride we've had, it's been a lot of fun.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: She used to pray, "I just want him to go to church with me."<br />
<br />
Leslie Strobel: That's right.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Lee you're writing a novel, I don't have time to talk about it, but will you come back and talk about it?<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: I'd love to, absolutely.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: All right, let's do it. And glad to have you in the neighborhood and look forward to maybe having dinner together some time.<br />
<br />
Lee Strobel: Yeah! That would be wonderful.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Okay.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: You've been listening to Family Talk and Dr. James Dobson's conversation with Lee and Leslie Strobel. You can visit today's broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org, once you're there, you'll find a link for the Strobel's book called Spiritual Mismatch again that's drjamesdobson.org and then click on to the broadcast icon.<br />
<br />
If you were blessed by Lee and Leslie Strobel's testimony over these past three programs, please let us know. Our number is 877-732-6825. Once you're connected, you can select the special listener feedback lien option to tell us what you appreciated about these programs. Or if you'd like, you can choose the option to talk to one of our representatives here in Colorado Springs.<br />
<br />
Our representatives will be happy to talk with you or to pray for you if you have a request. Again that number is 877-732-6825. Finally, I want to encourage to listen to every addition of Family Talk on your Amazon Alexa. This easy to use smart device allows you to hear Dr. Dobson's latest interviews with a simple command.<br />
<br />
Simply enable the Family Talk skill through your account then say, "Alexa, play today's broadcast of Family Talk." Learn how to play our broadcast on your Amazon Alexa by visiting drjamesdobson.org/alexa. Well thanks so much for joining us over these past three days here on Family Talk, and be sure to tune in again tomorrow to hear advice for angry and frustrated moms from author and speaker Julie Barnhill.<br />
<br />
She'll be discussing that with Dr. Dobson right here on our next edition of Family Talk. Have a great day everyone.<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: The key to a healthy marriage is to keep your eyes wide open before you wed and half closed thereafter.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: For Family Talk, here's Dr. James Dobson.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Last year there were close to 2.5 million divorces in the United States. And part of the problem is the tendency for young men and women to marry virtual strangers. Oh, I know a typical couple talks for countless hours before the courtship period, and they believe they know each other, but a dating relationship is designed to conceal information, not reveal it.<br />
<br />
Consequently, the bride and groom often enter into marriage with an array of private opinions about how life will be lived after the wedding, and the stage is set for major problems. For this reason, I strongly believe that each engaged couple should participate in at least six to 10 sessions with a competent marriage counselor in order to identify the assumptions that each partner holds and to work through areas of potential conflict.<br />
<br />
Some couples discover through this process that they have major problems that hadn't surfaced until then and they agree to either postpone or call off the wedding. Others work through their conflicts and proceed toward marriage with increased confidence. Premarital counseling is the key. If the tragedy of divorce could be reduced by even five percent, it would certainly be worth the effort.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Hear more at drjamesdobson.org.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Well thank you everyone for tuning in to our program today. You may know that Family Talk is a listener supported program and we remain on that air by your generosity, literally. If you can help us financially, we would certainly appreciate it. God's blessings to you all."
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}
ASSETS:<pre></pre>
-->

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												<span class="page-heading">PARENTING</span>
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												<p class="p1">

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															<h4 class="asset-text">
															  <a href="/resource/audio/f999d905-6584-4c33-9bc6-7894e469c193">God’s Miracle of Life - part 1</a>
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															<h4 class="asset-text">
															  <a href="/resource//eb50defe-9726-488d-9a63-cc7a71a8c970">Help for Angry Moms - Part 1</a>
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															<h4 class="asset-text">
															  <a href="/resource//2c441315-b232-4798-aade-0f1c1de4adb3">Help for Angry Moms - Part 2</a>
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															<h4 class="asset-text">
															  <a href="/resource//190436c7-35f5-4ec1-a12d-ab80cbf2ab61">Spiritual Mismatch in Marriage 3</a>
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															<h4 class="asset-text">
															  <a href="/resource/audio/f6ba5a0d-7fcb-4314-a149-30dd1e2e18fa">Help for Angry Moms - Part 2</a>
															</h4>
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