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<br />
Roger Marsh: Hello everyone, this is Roger Marsh. Thank you for listening to this Family Talk broadcast. I'm excited you've joined us today, as we bring you one of our best broadcasts from 2018. Throughout the month of December, we'll be highlighting our most listened to shows, along with some of Dr. Dobson's hand-picked favorites. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy this popular program from this past year.<br />
<br />
Announcer: Today on Family Talk.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
James Dobson: Hello everyone and thank you for joining us for another addition of Family Talk. I'm Dr. James Dobson and whether you're listening to us on the radio or online, I am so happy that you tuned in today. We'd be kind of lonely here all by ourselves. On this broadcast, you'll hear the remainder of an interview between Dr. Tim Clinton and Dr. Sharon May. Yeah, she is Founder and President of the Safe Haven Relationship Counseling Center. Today, she and Dr. Clinton will unpack practical ways couples can break the negative cycle in their relationship. Here now is the conclusion of this insightful interview on Family Talk.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Yesterday we talked a lot about &mdash; well this is very important. The path or the cycle of brokenness that's so easy to get caught up in. Often couples get caught up in it very unintentionally. They don't mean to. As a matter of fact, they are trying to turn the marriage around. Literally, in the name of love sometimes, they can lose it, love, in their relationship. And so, if you can see that, by the way, that's the first step, that's an important step in breaking free to a new life together.<br />
<br />
Sharon, before we jump in though, you, growing up through the years, spent a lot of time, you and your family, your wonderful dad, Dr. Archibald Hart, with the Dobson family. And I know they had such incredible influence in your life. Wanna share a little bit about Dr. Dobson and his wife Shirley and their families?<br />
<br />
Sharon May: They have been family friends for many years, and their work has been phenomenal over the past decades. My dad started with Dr. Dobson back in 1977 with the radio programs in Arcadia. And just watching over the past three decades the impact, worldwide, Dr. Dobson has had on the marriage and family culture. So many people &mdash; millions of people have dialed in daily, and still today say: "They helped &mdash; those programs helped me raise my children; helped me get through my hurting marriage."<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: I'm thinking of works like Love Must be Tough and others that I spent a lot of time in grad school trying to memorize and learn but, a lot of what we're talking about today, those were the seeds, those were the timeless truths about getting to a new place together that can hopefully be the substance of where we're going today.<br />
<br />
So, let's go back, we're in trouble in our relationship, it's not fun, we don't like each other, all we do is fight, it's a sad place to be. And in the midst of that, and here's the guilt free drop to everybody, all marriages are going to go through times or periods of disaffection. Problems aren't really the issue. It's what you do with them or in the midst of them that will determine the future of your relationship, your love together. Sharon, we're in a mess, take us to step one. We need a healing path. How do we take a step toward each other?<br />
<br />
Sharon May: And the first step is to recognize that your marriage is on the edge of the cliff. It's being able to say, "We're disconnected." "We have parallel lives." "I'm quick to be irritated or frustrated." "I'm quick to defend." To be able to admit and to be able to look at your marriage and to review what's going on and to be able to get on your knees and say, "Lord, is this what you have for us? Is this Your best?"&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: -Sharon, [crosstalk] I believe that most couples are unaware&mdash; of the crazy cycle that they're in.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: They're in a crazy cycle.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes. It becomes their new normal. I fight, argue. I'm critical, you defend, you then just go off and watch T.V. and then I take care of the kids and then I tell you, "Oh! So, you're not going to be with me tonight," and you roll your eyes and you continue changing the channels. That that's our new normal- and its being able to slow down that the Lord called us to be each other safe haven. The Lord called us to love well and for us to be everything he has for us to be, and who have we become in our marriage. Have we become angry, bitter, resentful, withdrawing, shut down, closed off? That's not who God has for us to be.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: You used the word 'safety' a lot. I'm going to go to a counseling session or two I've had through the years. I remember this one lady in particular. She was so frustrated, so angry that she just sat in the office and cried, and said, "Tim, I don't know what to do and every time we're together again, he just like comes at me. I don't even want to go home. I don't want to be there." That word 'safety' becomes important. In our last broadcast, we talked a little about negative behavior being far more predictive in value than positive. In other words, when you say something to hurt or you do something like you joked about not taking the trash out. Most people would say, "That's stupid." No not really, because if you're wounded, "You didn't take the trash out, you know why? Because you wanted to be mean. You're being mean to me. That's all you are. You know I'm going to be late or it's raining out and you did that on purpose!" See, when you're really in trouble, those things, ones become threes, threes become fives, fives are tens. Am I right?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Right.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: And so, talk to us again about calling a truce, I guess, recognizing the hate basically that's going on and how do we stop that? I mean we've got to stop the negative.<br />
<br />
&nbsp;Sharon May: Yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: We've got to stop it.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes, and the way to stop the negative is remembering that this person in front of you is a struggling human being whom you chose to love and to cherish, and you've lost your way. Now, first, when you talk about safety, one is reassessing? Am I in a difficult marriage or am I in a destructive, abusive marriage? If you feel you are in the destructive, abusive marriage then you need to get counseling right away. If you feel your husband or your wife is an addict, is abusive, and that is just destroying your soul, and is damaging, then you need to get help.<br />
<br />
Do couples counseling, do a marriage intensive, but to be able to call my office. Call my office, email me, grow@havenofsafety.com and find out, "where can I get help? Is this a destructive and damaging marriage?" But, we're talking about more difficult marriages. Marriages where we start arguing that you didn't take the trash out and that you not taking the trash out has meaning to me. My dragons are raised when you don't take the trash out, and my fears and vulnerabilities put meaning on why you didn't take the trash out.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: I mean you're struggling with: "I mean you don't care about me. that's really what it is."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Right, and at the bottom line of my fear is "I'm alone. I have to take care of myself. You don't love me and care for me." Then that meaning gets put on the trash. You're not taking the trash out, and because you don't care about me, you're not there for me, I have to take everything on, do everything on my own." It's so dangerous for me. My amygdala that part of brain that says, "Danger! Danger! You're now alone," fires up and now, I am prime to face the danger and you become my danger, and I start fighting what's seems dangerous. I might up the ante, I might use loud, harsh, critical words or blame or attack, all, so that you can see. "You know what, when you didn't take the trash out, it made me feel like I'm alone. That all the responsibilities are mine and you don't care for me." But instead of being soft and sharing that, I get harsh and critical and now I'm attacking and I'm blaming you. "You don't care about me!" And then as you're listening, you go "Well, of course I care about you. I just didn't take the trash out because it's raining, and you're wrong in thinking that I don't care about you so I defend myself! Well, of course I care about you. What are you talking about? You're crazy!" You know? And then on my &mdash;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: And so is your whole family.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yeah, and so is your whole family! And I'm like, "I'm not crazy. You're crazy! You've got a problem for not admitting that you have a problem." And so, I up the ante more.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Yeah, you're sick.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: The more we're not emotionally attuned and then I'm resentful.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Yeah, there's no attunement. That's a great word.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: We don't understand, we don't see each other. I had dinner the other night with a couple and it was intentional. They wanted to talk about the mess they were in. Toward the end of the evening, she had an "ah-ha" experience, and the truth was, she was very sad and broken, okay? Empty, alone, I mean she cried, but all of a sudden, she looked across the table and saw her husband and for the first time realized that he was feeling the same way and she couldn't believe it! She cried a little bit and she said, "I've never seen him like that. I didn't understand that." He is so frustrated. He's so angry. He &mdash; and everything he's doing just irritates me but the truth is, he is frantic. He is so chaotic because he's so afraid we're going to break up and then it's over." You can get so caught up in this cycle and you can't even see each other anymore, can you?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes, and that cycle is what [crosstalk] &mdash;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: And the hate, and the hate is just going everywhere.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes, and that cycle becomes destructive. That is a very powerful story you just told, Tim, because when we are able to get past that m&amp;m coating, that prickly shell, that defensiveness, that guardedness, or that attacking shell we have. When we get to see past that to our spouses' softer side, as that woman did that night that she looked past her husband defending or attacking or protecting, to see he's a struggling human being who has needs and hurts and just doesn't know how to share them in a way to be heard, when we start seeing each other's softer side, it starts lowering our guard.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: And it almost demands that we stop.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: You know, that we really, and this important. I hope everybody understands this. Reducing the negative means you've got to put that stuff into a box- we understand you're going to fight.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: But you can't let this continue to fester. You hear what I'm saying? And Sharon, this again, this is a hard piece for couples to break through. This is often where they need that third party to come in.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: And to have a safe place where they can discuss volatile issues. Maybe they're frustrated over each other's family or there's been a past hurt that they just can't get beyond. They can't release, they can't forgive. As they start seeing that, you can, by the way, increase the positive and I know it sounds very simplistic but it's not. When you become aware of the destructive patterns, when you start focusing on reducing the negative and you start realizing that we need a little love to flow between the two of us because I'm empty, I'm alone and all I want is for someone to what? Love me. Okay. What I can do is say, "I never saw you like that before," and if I can just start doing some slow careful reach back to you like, "I'll pray for us," [crosstalk]. Is there something I can do for you?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yeah, and you're right Tim, and things and saying like, "Can you say that a different way because I feel a guard going up and I know you are trying to tell me something important."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: You know what this guy said other night? He said, "You told me not long ago that I was a good dad." He said, "That shook me up so much because it meant so much to me. When you just tell me something like that, I'll walk on glass for you." But, because they were fighting so much &mdash; there's none of that soft love coming through.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Right.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: So, these emotional strands of connectedness aren't there where you feel close, right Sharon? So, we somehow have to begin and this is why you might need some baby steps of help, getting that to start flowing between the two of you again.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Right. When you have so much negativity and literally your emotional brain perceives your spouse as the enemy, to start crumbling that wall and to start lowering your own guard, and to start appreciating, listening, be slow to react. Don't do a harsh startup or immediately defensive or blame, but to be able to say something kind like, "Can you say that again because I really want to understand you," or "I value you. You know, I woke up this morning and I'm really glad I have you," or, "Is there something I can do for you today?" or, "I appreciate you." You know-<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Or just slip a little note somewhere.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yeah!&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Or send a text or whatever.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes, and even to be able to say, "You know, we're in the meantime. We haven't fully got down the road. We haven't gone to counseling yet. We haven't done the intensive but, I know we'll get through to the other side because that's the heart of God for our marriage. But in the meantime, I want to appreciate you because I know you're hurting just as much as me. You're wanting to be valued and seen and hurt just as much as me."<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: I love it. I love it because it means something to all of us.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes!&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Maybe this is where like Gary Chapman's love languages becomes important because if we don't know how to reach to each other, in each other's love language especially at this kind of a moment.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: You can be loving someone with everything you got, and they don't know it.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Well, they don't hear it or see it!&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Yeah I know. Yeah they don't feel it!<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Feel it, yes!&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: And it's like, wait a second. What else do you want me to do?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yeah, right. I did the dishes! Don't you feel loved by me?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: So, what?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yeah.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Yeah then, I don't even care if you do the dishes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
&nbsp;Sharon May: Yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: What do you mean?<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Right.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: I did the dishes!&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Just come sit and hold my hands. Just spend time with me, you know then I feel loved. But you're right, understanding each other's love languages that I can reach you so that you can feel safe again with me, that you can trust me with your heart that you know I'll be emotionally available and attuned to you. I want to know you.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Love it.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: And I want to respond to you in a caring manner, that I now start having good manner versus bad manners. You know, my mom always said, "We can treat people out on the street with the best manners but when we come home, our spouse becomes the same old person and we then can be rude and short and then we feel, "But I'm just being me." No, "you're being bad-mannered." My mom always said she was trying to make life on earth a little bit of heaven for my dad. I remember one time me saying, "But mom, dad was just kind of critical to you and kind of snippy to you!" You know, "Why are you still making him a cup of tea." And she said "no, I have chosen to love your dad, and I've made that promise to the Lord, and who I want to be, and how I want to love is my obedience to the Lord. So, if your dad chooses to be snippy, I'll go to him and I'll say, 'hey, that hurt me.' But I'm not going to be reactive in my loving: then I'll be mean back. Then, 'I'm not going to make you a cup of tea! and I'm going to use bad manners.' No! 'I'm going to love you, and I'm going to come to you, eye to eye, loving and caringly, and say, 'You know last night when you didn't take the trash out? And then you said I was kind of silly or stupid, you know that really hurt me.' I'm going to speak love. I'm going to go softer, quieter, gentler, when I speak my complaints and my hurts. I'm not going to get louder and more angry and more critical."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Got to train yourself in this, Sharon.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Oh, my goodness!&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Yeah, it takes work because it's natural to want to just go [inaudible].&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: You know, and it takes character.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Yeah it does.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: And that's when the Lord says, "You've got to grow and become like one whom has created us." That is a lifelong journey.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: To grow our character, we started doing "becoming real" seminars and classes for people. I've started doing intensives for individuals because they say, "Okay, I get it. I came to the marriage intensive. I know what I need to do in the marriage but for me personally, to grow and become Christ-like to love well is a whole another journey that the Lord calls us on, and I hear you, &mdash;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Sharon, let's do this because I know we're fighting the clock a little bit. A number of people listening no doubt are in a situation where it's painful, maybe their spouse is done or the hurts are so deep that they're stuck. They're trying but they can't get beyond it and they're going to need some help and forgiveness. We got a lot of work because when you look at back of these two broadcasts, you realize "Man, we've hurt each other a lot and we're going to need a lot deep, the deep oil of forgiveness and grace. We're going to have to bring some honor back," but for those who were stuck, you've been involved and I know a number of people out there doing now these marriage intensives, I'd like for you to take a moment and talk about why they're significant and what you really try to get done in say like a, quote, maybe an extended week of just doing intensive couple's therapy.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes. In my experience, I am finding that couples do better in an intensive setting. That means they will come for two to three to four days and we work on the marriage from 9:30 to four o'clock every single day, and some couples go, "Whoa!" You mean &mdash;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: I bet that's a little bit of fun up front, huh?<br />
<br />
Sharon May: You know, yes! It &mdash; do I? Is this going to be like you're going to beat me up for three to four days? No. We get to the heart of the issues right away. We get to the softer side. We get to identify the cycle and we get to identify what's really going on and what are you really longing for. We get to identify the hurts and how to heal them.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Yeah, you're not skirting the issues.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: No.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Sharon, you're going right- you're going right into the mess.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Oh, and I tell you, couples will say, "What? It's one o'clock. It's lunch time already? My goodness, that went by so quickly." You see, a lot of couples go to weekly sessions, and I'm not saying all weekly sessions are not good and healthy, but a lot of times, couples say &mdash;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: It depends on the couple.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Right. It's the argument of the week [crosstalk] &mdash;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Situation.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: We're just unraveling, and men feel, "you're going to pick, pick, pick, pick at me and I'm the problem and she's [crosstalk]&mdash;"<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: So, every &mdash; every therapy session's a disaster.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Exactly, and we don't get anywhere. We've been doing this for six months and an intensive can get you ahead what would take six or eight months' worth of counseling. I highly recommend doing, reaching out, and investigating, and researching the intensive. You can reach me at grow@havenofsafety.com. I'd be willing to give you information on the intensive model versus couple's counseling and to find you something [crosstalk].<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Sharon, I want to throw this in too. We know now that if couples go for marriage counseling, typically they're getting the help they want. These marriage intensives, they tend to have a very high success rate, don't they?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Very high success rate, yes. We get to the heart of the issue within those first few days and so, it's productive and you walk away with having gone through a path instead of just dealing with the argument of the week. I would love to, if I can Tim, say that Family Talk, if the listeners would like to do an intensive, I would like to work out something that to make it affordable for them so that no couple should be stuck arguing in resentment when there is help.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: You might get a little overwhelmed.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Well we can work together.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Sharon, yes we can. We will, and Sharon, would you take a few moments here and now I guess. I want to slow this way down. For the woman who may be driving down the road in her van, and the kids are back there and this is her story, or maybe it's the man. He could be in a truck, middle of Arkansas, somewhere, and every time he calls home, it's not working. He just wants somebody to pray for him. He's dialed in. She's dialed in and would you just take a moment and pray for them, over them? And then, we're going to learn a little bit more about how to get in touch with you. Okay, let's do that.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes. Well thank you for tuning in and listening and you are listening to today's program. It's not by chance that the Lord is calling you closer to His heart because He hears your cries.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Lord, as you watch this woman, this man, you know them by name Lord. You know what's going on in their marriage. Lord, I ask that you will give them hope and courage and strength with this journey. That the Lord's desire for your marriage is for healing in wholeness, to bring you to His best He has for you and that many couples come to the edge of that cliff not because they want to leave but because they don't know how to connect and their longing is to connect.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
So, for you, I pray that the Lord speaks into your heart and to your marriage and gives you the courage to step out, to get help, to risk to be vulnerable with your spouse, to lower your guard and to reach out and to love in a different way. The Lord is with you. You're not alone and there is hope.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Amen.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Amen.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Sharon, one more time. How can they reach you?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Sharon May: My email address is grow, G-R-O-W, @havenofsafety. My website is safehavenrelationshipcenter.com and I look forward to hearing your story and helping you get the information you need so you can make a decision on how to heal and grow your marriage.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: There's nothing more beautiful in all the world than to be in a relationship with someone who's supposed to love you and they actually love you. That's our prayer over you today, that God would do that work in and through your life.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well this is James Dobson again, at the end of the second half of this broadcast. I do hope you enjoyed listening to Dr. Tim Clinton as he interviewed Dr. Sharon May about her heart and passion for married couples here on Family Talk. If you missed part one of this conversation between these two clinicians, go to today's broadcast's page, drjamesdobson.org, and there you will find the link to day one of this interview along with more information about Dr. May's ministry, the Safe Haven Relationship Counseling Center. Once again, this is James Dobson. Thanks for being with us today. We'll see you tomorrow.<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: You've been listening to Family Talk, and one of our best of the best broadcasts from the year that was 2018. Now, before we close, I want to remind you of our matching grant that's going on right now. Here at the Dobson Family Institute, we rely on your generosity to continue fighting for families, and from now until the end of the year, every donation you make will be doubled! Learn how you can partner with us today by visiting drjamesdobson.org. I'm Roger Marsh. Have a blessed day everyone, from all of us here at Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Hi, this is Roger Marsh for Family Talk with some exciting news! We have put together 18 of Dr. Dobson's most favorite broadcasts of the past year, and we present them to you, together, on six audio CDs in the 2018 Family Talk Best of Broadcast collection. Join Dr. Dobson and many incredible guests, including Jentezen Franklin, Greg Laurie, Jessa and John Crisp, and more, in this compelling audio collection. You can get your CD set as our thank you for a suggested donation of fifty dollars or more in support of Family Talk. Join Dr. Dobson in serving families. Call 877-732-6825 or visit drjamesdobson.org."
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<br />
Roger Marsh: Hello everyone, this is Roger Marsh. Thank you for listening to this Family Talk broadcast. I'm excited you've joined us today, as we bring you one of our best broadcasts from 2018. Throughout the month of December, we'll be highlighting our most listened to shows, along with some of Dr. Dobson's hand-picked favorites. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy this popular program from this past year.<br />
<br />
Narrator: Today on Family Talk ...<br />
<br />
James C. Dobson: Hello everyone, and welcome to Family Talk. I'm your host, Dr. James Dobson, and we're going to talk about marriage today. The Creator says in Genesis 2 that men and women were designed specifically for one another, and when they come together under the banner of marriage, they become one flesh or one identity. Now I paraphrased that, but you know that scripture. What an incredible concept it is. In other places in scripture, we read that this commitment is intended for life and that husbands and wives are to love each other and care for each other unconditionally. Jesus himself echoed this scripture; in fact, he was quoting from Genesis 1:27 and 2:24. He said, this is in Matthew 19:3-6: "Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, 'Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any kind of reason?' 'Haven't you read,' Jesus replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator 'male and female,' and said, 'For this reason,'" and by the way, this is Genesis 2:24, "'For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' They're no longer two, but one. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no man separate."<br />
<br />
Now recently, we sent Dr. Tim Clinton on a mission. He's got plenty to do in his own right, but agreed to do this. We asked him to interview Dr. Sharon May. She's a licensed marriage, family, and child counselor, state licensed, and she's the daughter of our dear, dear friend Archibald and Kathleen Hart. She's the head of the Safe Haven Relationship Counseling Center in Southern California. She and Dr. Clinton are doing to discuss the terrible downward spiral of brokenness and anger and hurt that some couples find themselves in. How they can break free from that cycle and reconnect with their spouse. It is possible. Now let's go to part one of this great conversation here on Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Today on Family Talk, we have an amazing guest. Actually, one of my favorite guests, Dr. Sharon May. She serves clients from the greater San Diego area: Orange County, Los Angeles, and by the way all over the country because she is involved now in what's called "new marriage intensives." We're going to be talking a lot more about that, but Sharon, hey. It's great to have you in studio. Always fun to be with you.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: It's really good to be with you, Tim. Thank you so much for having me on the program.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Sharon, you're an expert in relationships. We're going to talk today about primarily loveless, empty relationships. I heard someone say once, "There's nothing more beautiful in all the world," Sharon, "than to be in a relationship with someone who's supposed to love you, and they actually love you. There's nothing more painful in all the world than to be in a relationship with someone who's supposed to love you and they don't love you." Sharon, what are you seeing out there on the landscape of relationships of marriages that you serve every day?<br />
<br />
Sharon May: You know, Tim, what you are describing is the heart of God because if we go back into the New Testament or go forward into the New Testament, we hear God's heart in saying, "Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul, and love each other." That it is the heart of God for us to love and be loved. We thrive in life when we are in a healthy relationship, in a healthy marriage relationship. I sit just about every day all day with couples, and most of them fighting of course-<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: "All we do is fight, all we do is fight."<br />
<br />
Sharon May: I know.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Everybody fights.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yeah, and the marriage intensives that I do, and that I see at the heart of a couple's conflict is a longing to be heard, to be seen, to be understood. To feel, "Are you there for me? Do you care for me? Do you have my back? Do you hear me and understand me?" We get stuck arguing and fighting in attempts to be heard, but our attempts are usually more destructive than they are constructive. Couples land up having years of "that hurt me," "do you see me?", "do you understand me?" Defending, "I'm not as bad as you think I am," "I didn't mean that," "hear me," "understand me," and this battle we get into that leaves both of us hurting, disconnected ...<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Let's offer our listeners a guilt-free job here for a moment. Sharon and I are both going to tell you this, that all marriages are going to go through periods of disaffection.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Marriage is hard work-<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: And it can turn into a mess.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: It really can be a mess, and painful because it's not fun being in a relationship that's not working, and going out on a date night with somebody you don't like.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes, and you might be in love. You might love each other. I find that a lot of couples say, "I love my spouse but I don't like them." It is the impact, or the residue, of resentment and hurt. "You haven't seen me or heard me or understood me." You know, couples argue. If you want to know "do I have a healthy marriage?", the barometer can't be "how often do we argue or do we fight, or how different we are?" We usually marry someone who's very different.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Sure we do.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: As John Gottman says, "Our differences are going to be there four years later because our differences are about personality and [inaudible 06:47] differences." It's what we do with those differences and how we argue that either fosters that safe haven, fosters that close-connected bond, or destroys it, or starts disintegrating it. So, what is a healthy marriage? A healthy marriage really is a couple who is able to turn toward each other because they have three ingredients: tar, "it's the glue that keeps us together"; it's trust, "I trust you with my heart. I trust that you have my best interest in mind. Even though you say something that's maybe rude or your tone of voice or you forget to do something, I know that at the end of the day, I can trust you with me. Secondly, that you're going to be available to me emotionally, that you care enough. You're going to slow down. You're going to be attuned to me, and you'll get to know me. Then thirdly, that you're going to respond in the best interest of us, that you will respond in a considerate manner."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
A healthy marriage is one where, of course we're going to disagree. We're going to disagree probably about most things, but that we can turn toward each other. That we can say, "You know last night? That hurt me." That we can be [influencable 08:00]. "Did I hurt you? I'm so sorry, but what I was trying to get you to understand was that we can turn toward each other. We can resolve things. At the end of the day, I know you're going to be there for me. You'll listen to me, understand me, and be influenced by me."<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: So Sharon, let's step back for a moment because we know this. You've been there, I've been there. There are moments in a relationship when you don't have the tar factor going.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: I've heard this statement: "the level of intimacy or closeness, emotional closeness between us, will never rise above the fear or anger between us." Here's this fight; the pace, the pressure, the pain of modern-day life's beating us to death, and it's not fun to come home. Sharon, let's start there. Let's go to ground zero for a moment and let's kind of do a repair. That's what you've talked about. You like to do relationship repair.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Take us basic steps: where do we go?<br />
<br />
Sharon May: First, we've got to realize that we did marry someone whom we had hoped would be our safe haven. That-<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Sort of an expectation there, yeah.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes, and that on our wedding day, we did say, "Lord, this human being is imperfect. I am, but I am choosing to be with him for a lifetime." We have to go back and remember "there was something about this person that drew my heart to them." As we hold that hope of, "Lord, can we come back to that?", we then pull back and say, "What has been the ugly cycle that we've gotten stuck in that has caused us to disintegrate?" Sometimes it's not that we've married the wrong person. It's that the resentment and the cycle that we get stuck in has kept us guarded and protective, and angry, and hurt.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Let's talk a little bit about how when the pain comes how, like John Gottman has taught and our friend Scott [Stanley 10:04] and others have taught; these are marital research experts, that negative communication patterns start developing and taking over the relationship. It isn't really about trying to hurt each other when we start criticizing, "The problem is you never show me you love me. It's you, Sharon. You're the problem. You are the problem." "No no, Tim, you're the problem." This chaotic communication pattern, which is really trying to recover the relationship or get you to love me, "I'm just trying to get your attention. I want you to know I'm not happy. I'm frustrated, please. What I do is I attack you almost. I criticize you and say you're the problem, which by the way, puts you on the defensive." Talk about that communication.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Absolutely, because that is the negative cycle we get stuck in as we are trying to be heard. I, then, up the ante and I pursue you, and I say it louder and harsher and more critical hoping that you will understand, that when you didn't take the trash out, it really made me feel hurt. Then, the more I pursue and I get hot and angry, the more you're going to defend yourself and you're going to say, "I'm not as bad as you say I am. These are the reasons why." I blame, and we get stuck in this pursue/withdraw, this attack/defend pattern.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Yeah, it's almost like, "Hey, it doesn't matter what I do. I can't make you happy. You're impossible. It's not me. What else do you expect from me?" You know what I'm saying?<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Absolutely, and what Daniel [Wiley 11:37] says that, "I can't hear you until I feel you understand me." I then get on my high horse and I am desperate to get you to hear me, but you can't hear me because you feel I don't understand you, and we get stuck in this cycle. If couples stay stuck in this cycle where we start rewriting our safe haven, we start rewriting, "You know what? You're not safe. You're not a good man. You're not there for me. I can't trust you with my heart," and then you become the enemy. If I'm living with the enemy, I close up my heart. I take my heart back, and I am guarded and I am quick to respond. I'm quick to get angry. I'm quick to be defensive. Then you are as well, and we get two people who have rewritten the safe haven as saying, "You're not my safe haven. I need to protect and be guarded."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
We then start living parallel lives. I start then trusting my friends, I take care of the children. I maybe do tasks and my hobbies, and so do you. You work more. Maybe you're playing golf, you've got your buddies. We are then home alone. As you said at the beginning, Tim, where we're in a marriage where we're supposed to have someone who cares for us, is there for us, and we feel so guarded like "you're not there for me," we feel home alone. That's the saddest place to be. "I can't trust you with me. You don't understand me. All you do is defend. You always blame me, that I'm the bad person, and I'm home alone." That sadness and grief often is masked and is covered with anger and resentment. We lose sight of our softer heart. We lose sight of saying, "You know what? I've gotten so angry and resentful and mad at you," and we lose sight of knowing how to say, "You know what? Our arguments have gotten where I'm so guarded, I don't even trust you with my heart anymore, but I know I married you because you were special to me and you're meaning to me."<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: It's confusing.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: And now it's confusing.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: And it's chaotic.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: And it's chaotic, and you know Tim? Couples stay in this chaotic space, John Gottman says, for four years before they cry out for help. Some couple stay here for 15 years, and then they say, "Why are we even married?" Then they divorce when actually, they're longing to find a way back home to each other.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Sharon, in some of the research out there on broken couples, we're learning that negative interactions are far more predictive in value than positive ones. In other words, if all you do is fight, "If all we're doing is fighting, I mean every time I pick up the phone, all we do is fight. Every time we see each other, all we do is fight. Every time we go out on date night, all we do is ..."<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Fight.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Fight. What are they saying there when they say negative behavior is far more predictive than positive behavior? It's like five to twenty positives to counteract one negative in a bad marriage.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Right, right.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: That means we got some work to do to get of the negative, right?<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes. The more we stay stuck arguing, the more I start viewing my spouse as not safe. "You don't care about me. You don't have my best interest in mind, and the more I redefine you as the enemy. If we stay stuck in that rut, you are my enemy, I will approach every event as, 'You are the enemy. You're against me.' I won't trust your intentions as being positive. I won't give you the benefit of the doubt." Forgiving of or letting go of small little slights doesn't happen, and we're quick to be irritable, to be critical, and to be harsh. If you are stuck in that marriage, you have to take a step back. Maybe you've been like a frog in the kettle and you've gotten there, and you're listening right now [inaudible 15:46] saying, "Oh my goodness. This is my marriage. You mean it's not supposed to be this way?" No, it's not the heart of God. The heart of God is for you to love well. The heart of God is for you to grow and become everything He has for you so that you can love well.<br />
<br />
You need to take a step back and say, "Time out. I am not going to continue my part of this negative cycle. I need to take a step back and say, 'Okay, what is the cycle my husband and I are stuck in, or my wife and I are stuck in?'" Name that cycle. Draw it out on a piece of paper. When I say to my husband, "You didn't take the trash out," this is what I'm feeling. This is what he does in reaction. This is what I then do in reaction to him. Draw the cycle. Maybe go to your spouse, "You know what? I think this is a cycle we get stuck in. I don't want to do it anymore. I don't want to be the angry pursuer who feels like a mother telling you what to do, because then I feel like you're a child. I then feel like you don't have my back. I don't want to have that position anymore. I want to change it."<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: The truth is, Sharon, when you get into that pattern, I'm looking at you thinking, "I don't like you."<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: "You become the exact thing that I don't like."<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes, exactly.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: What's interesting too is when we get in trouble, we default to our strengths. What that means is if I'm pretty orderly and controlled and I want things solved right now, I'm intensely that way.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: If you're free-floating and you like a little space, and you want to be playful, you don't like that person. We then begin to see each other wrong. It's like, "I see you as intrusive, manipulative, controlling, demanding." Truth is, all you want is some type loving response, but I think it's the opposite. You see me as withdrawing, uncaring, aloof, distant, because "if you really cared for me, if you really loved me, you'd come to me. You'd talk to me. You'd solve these issues." I'm thinking, "No I won't, because every time I do, all we do is what?"<br />
<br />
Sharon May: We just argue and fight. You know, Tim, what you've outlined in a very beautiful way but for many of the listeners, probably it's hitting home for them saying, "That's exactly how it is at home," is being able to take a step back and identifying it. If your husband is withdrawing and shutting down and defensive, what is really going on at the heart? He's not wanting to have a miserable marriage. He is longing to be heard and understood, and those are his coping mechanisms. Those are his protective coating. If your wife is always angry and pursuing and attacking, that is more of her defensive mode, her protective mode. That's not at the true heart of what she is trying to get at. The true heart of what she's saying is, "Can you please put your hand through my porcupine quills, through all of my yelling and my criticism, and know me. Really get to understand what I'm really trying to get you to hear and see." Put your hands through that cold ice wall of your husband. Get to his heart of saying, "Beyond your shut down and you're no longer talking and distracted," put your hand through that ice cold wall to the heart of him.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Until we can, as couples, slow down, recognize our negative cycle, and move toward understanding our own softer side and the softer side of our spouse, we will stay stuck in our negative cycle.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Maybe it's just two broken people who were trying to fix something that's not getting fixed. You're right. We're empty and lost, and we're angry. We're really angry.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Yes, and if you've come to a place where you are too angry and too lost and too empty, and that it feels so big for you to be able to go to your softer side and say to your spouse, to say to your husband, "You know what? I've been so angry lately," for years, maybe, "and I've bene resentful and I've taken back my heart. I don't trust it in your hands anymore." If it's too difficult for you to be vulnerable, to go to your spouse and make that confession, then it is time for you to reach out to get help to be able to go to your spouse and say, "This is too big for us."<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: I want to talk about that, Sharon, as we wrap up our very first day here talking about empty, loveless relationships and what you can do, because we really believe God's in the midst of that. No matter where you're at right now-<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Amen.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: There's still hope, and we want to bring that word to you. Sharon, for Christians in particular too, there's a lot of shame and embarrassment when your marriage doesn't work.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Absolutely. When you realize that that struggle is a human being struggle. We all argue, and arguing is not dangerous to a marriage. It's not being able to come to some resolve, being able to turn toward each other, and be able to come to some, "Okay, I understand you but I disagree, all right," and we can turn toward each other and still feel loved and cared for. That is key. When our arguments leave us disconnected and angry and resentful, then our arguments become dangerous. First, you're a human being. If the two of you have differences, that you don't agree on how the dishes should be packed in the dishwasher, welcome to being a human being. If you argue on the way to church, welcome. I bet you your pastor more times than not has argued on the way to church.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Oh yeah.<br />
<br />
Sharon May: It is then finding a way out of that resentment and getting stuck in the negativity of the cycle. It's finding your way out to saying, "I still love you. I care for you. I want to grow old with you. Let us remember that we are each other's safe haven. Let's recognize the cycle that we get stuck in. We're not going to have this cycle win or beat us down. There is a way to be able to resolve so we can turn toward and still find a safe haven with each other."<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: Sharon, a very significant conversation. It impacts all of us. I know in counselor training we say this: when we train counselors, we tell them, "You can't treat what you don't see. You got to be able to see it." To those of you who are out there, you may be a little frustrated saying, "Wait, what are we going to do? What's next?" We're going to come back tomorrow. Sharon, if you would br gracious enough to do that for us, and talk about the journey back toward feeling safe, to being emotionally free. How about emotionally close with each other where you can trust? Where you can accept influence one another? Where you can enjoy your life and love together? Promise you're going to do that?<br />
<br />
Sharon May: Absolutely. I look forward to it.<br />
<br />
Tim Clinton: All right.<br />
<br />
Once again, this is Dr. Tim Clinton, president of the American Association of Christian Counselors sitting in for Dr. Dobson today. Our special guest has been Dr. Sharon May. Sharon runs the Safe Haven Relationship Center. She's actually out of California. She's fun. I don't know if you've noticed her South African accent, but it's spectacular. Sharon, how can people reach you, want to learn more about what you do? Maybe some of the books you've written and the gift of grace that you are to all of us?<br />
<br />
Sharon May: If you want to reach me, you can reach me at grow@havenofsafety.com. That's grow@havenofsafety.com. My website is safehavenrelationshipcenter.com. Safehavenrelationshipcenter.com. We have information there about how to heal your marriage, the marriage intensives and classes that we offer. If you are a therapist and you are looking to get training in a very effective way of helping couples heal and grow in their marriages, emotionally-focused therapy, the faith-based emotionally-focused therapy, you can find information there as well.<br />
<br />
James C. Dobson: Well this is James Dobson again, and you're listening to an interview Dr. Tim Clinton conducted with Dr. Sharon May. We requested that they get together. I think you've been touched today by what they had to share. If you would like to know about Dr. May's Safe Haven Relationship Counseling Center, you can learn more by going to our website, drjamesdobson.org, and then click on today's broadcast page.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Thanks for listening, everybody. Hope you enjoyed the program. Remember to join us to hear the remainder of the conversation. That's next time on Family Talk. I'm Dr. James Dobson. Have a great day.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Narrator: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: You've been listening to Family Talk, and one of our best of the best broadcasts from the year that was 2018. Now, before we close, I want to remind you of our matching grant that's going on right now. Here at the Dobson Family Institute, we rely on your generosity to continue fighting for families, and from now until the end of the year, every donation you make will be doubled! So, five dollars becomes ten, 25 becomes 50, 50 becomes 100, and so on. Now this match is in place until we've reached our goal, so we urge you to take advantage of it right now. Learn how you can partner with us today by visiting drjamesdobson.org, or by calling 877-732-6825. Thanks so much for listening today, and be sure to join us again next time, for another 2018 best of broadcast. I'm Roger Marsh. Have a blessed day everyone, from all of us here at Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Hi, this is Roger Marsh for Family Talk with some exciting news! We have put together 18 of Dr. Dobson's most favorite broadcasts of the past year, and we present them to you, together, on six audio CDs in the 2018 Family Talk Best of Broadcast collection. Join Dr. Dobson and many incredible guests, including Jentezen Franklin, Greg Laurie, Jessa and John Crisp, and more, in this compelling audio collection. You can get your CD set as our thank you for a suggested donation of fifty dollars or more in support of Family Talk. Join Dr. Dobson in serving families. Call 877-732-6825 or visit drjamesdobson.org."
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ASSETS:<pre></pre>
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