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<br />
Dr. Dobson: Hello, everyone. This is Dr. James Dobson and you're tuned in to Family Talk. These radio broadcasts that you hear each day are produced by the James Dobson Family Institute. Yesterday we began listening to a recorded speech given by the late Gert Behanna. She's gone on to be with the Lord now, but she had been a wealthy, wild-living alcoholic, who had a very difficult childhood and grew up to have many, many problems. But she became a writer and a speaker after finding Christ and sobriety at the age of 53. She wrote an autobiography that was entitled, The Late Liz, which went on to become a full-length feature film in 1971.<br />
<br />
Now, how come I know about her? Well, I happened to have been in a church service about 1965 when Gert was the speaker and she told her story, and it made such a deep impact on me that I recently remembered it and talked to my producers here at Family Talk about it, and asked them to see if they could find the recording of her message, God Isn't Dead. That's what I heard her speak about so long ago. Gert died in 1969, but there's still many people who remember her and you're going to remember her too, but because we're gonna let you hear that speech. God Isn't Dead. Hang on to your hat.<br />
<br />
Gert Behanna: I was out in California until the late spring of 1947 while [inaudible 01:52] was being settled. And then I returned to the Chicago area where I was then living, a very sick woman. My crippled mind and heart had by now crippled my body. I was walking with a cane, crippled with psychosomatic arthritis, dragging my right leg. My spine was so packed with calcium that the doctors all told me that within five years I would not be able to move my head. And I had a blood count of 38, which is, of course, pernicious anemia. A totally sick woman. I went to this small sanitarium, which you may be sure was very expensive, and there they took pictures of things going down and pictures of things coming up. The end of that time, the doctor in charge of all the reports on me from the staff said to me, "Ms. Behanna, you're a very sick woman and there's no matter with you." So, I said, "You mean it's all psychosomatically induced?" And he said, "Yes." He tapped his forehead and he said, "But make no mistake, you are a borderline case."<br />
<br />
He then pushed a piece of paper across the desk to me. On it were written two names. He said, "These are two Chicago psychiatrists, and we advise that you see one of them at once." I then did a very strange thing. I pushed my chair back and I stood up and I said, "I don't need a psychiatrist. What I need is God." I have no idea where this came from. I do know it was the first time in my life I had ever used the word 'God' seriously. Somebody had sowed a seed.<br />
<br />
The doctor looked at me in perfect astonishment. He had watched my spoiled behavior. This woman bringing her own linen sheets, her own pillow and pillow cases and special cashmere blankets, my liquor bottle, so discreetly put into silver decanters. He looked at me and he shook his head and he said, "Well, God wouldn't hurt a bit."<br />
<br />
I didn't do anything about it then, but I did say it. At the end of this time I went to New Canaan, Connecticut to visit a friend. And she said, "Gert, before you return to the Middle West, there's a couple I'd like to have you meet." Well, in this small world, I already knew too many people, and I said, "Why do you want me to meet them?" She said, "Because their lives used to be rather like yours, and a few years ago something happened to change their lives." I said, "What happened?" She was a little embarrassed. She said, "They were converted." I said, "Converted to what?" My car had a convertible top. To my answer, "Converted to whom?" she said, "To God." And then I was embarrassed. This was not socially au fait.<br />
<br />
I had never known anyone who called herself/himself a Christian, who had stood up the way I do now and said, "Boy, I am a Christian." Wow. Now that I am a Christian, I think this is a judgment on us Christians, not on drunks. If we were what we call ourselves, if we followed Him after whom we call ourselves, Christians, sinners, bums, everybody who knew anything about Him at all, would be working for Him. The Christians selling Him, the sinners hoping to buy Him. Nobody that I can find who was in the bum class like me, none of that bad little man Zacchaeus, just love that little man. Just as bad as he can be. You're all Bible people, smile, you knows Zacchaeus. None of them were even remotely afraid of our Lord. It was only the goody goods who were afraid of Him, the self-righteous.<br />
<br />
Boy, we're way off the track. Our Lord must have been the most attracting human being that ever walked the face of this earth. Everywhere he went, multitudes followed Him. Do any multitudes follow you? They don't me. The idea of anyone so lost as myself, so needing beyond the powers of even expression or thought, the only help that could be help, having to get drunk through fear to meet those who called themselves after Him who says that He is perfect love and freedom from all fear. Of course, my first two Christians arrived. They were charming and I was drunk. They ate their dinner and I drank mine, and all evening long I bombarded them with questions about God. Oh, so, they knew God, did they? Well, well. And did God speak to them and if He did, what did He say? Well they said all this nonsense ad nauseam, and finally the man said to me, "Gert, you do have a lot of troubles, why don't you turn them over to God?" Stopped me. The only reason I can imagine that it stopped me was because he meant it.<br />
<br />
Things that are meant are believed. There sat this sophisticated New York businessman, actually believing that there was someone to whom I could turn over my problems. I looked at him and I said, "You make it sound as though I had suitcases that were too heavy for me to carry and I needed a porter." He said, "That's about it." Well, you see how blessed I was? This man let me have Jesus Christ on my only level of being able to understand help coming. He let me have him a porter, because the removal of physical burdens was all I could conceive of.<br />
<br />
Two days later, I returned to the Middle West. In my house was six weeks' accumulation of mail. I went through the First-Class mail and I found a short note from this couple in New Canaan, welcoming me home. This amazed me. Why did they care? They had only seen me one evening and I'd been a total mess. Why did they care? This was my initial introduction to the courtesy of Christ. They went on to say that every morning at nine o'clock Eastern Daylight Time, they were sitting down to pray for me. This rocked me. Pray for me.<br />
<br />
So far as I know, no one in my whole life had ever prayed for me, and God knows I had never prayed for anyone. And I also remembered these people were not fools. They were not sitting down praying to nobody. They closed by saying that under separate cover they were sending me a little magazine then called the Evangel, now called Faith at Work. If I had time, they wished I'd look at it. I had time. I went through the Second-Class mail, found it, opened it up, and on the first page was a one page article entitled, "It is never too late to start over" by one Samuel M. Shoemaker. I'd never heard of Sam Shoemaker, but then I'd never heard of any other ministers, either.<br />
<br />
I read the article. I stood up and dropped the book. It's something I'd never done in my life before. I went over to my bed and got down on my knees and I said, "If you're anywhere around, I wish you would please help me because I sure need it." And in about 20 minutes it was all over. Of course, there are no words. All I know is that it was more like a spiritual shower bath than anything. I felt cleansed. I also felt welcomed. I'd never had a home and I'd never made one, and I felt welcomed. I also felt forgiven. And I knew exactly who this was. I, who had never known anything about God in my whole life, knew exactly who this was.<br />
<br />
And after a while I stood up and I said, "Thank you very much, Sir. I don't know anything about this and I'm going to have to start from scratch. But I'll tell you one thing, I'll never take another drop of liquor as long as I live." And I never have. Something had been added, all right. A plus is in the shape of a cross, and you and I call him Jesus Christ, and I started from scratch, you better believe. Within minutes, I thought there was a prayer I had to learn once. What was it? And I got as far as "Our father who art" and then I thought, our father. Not theirs, not just mine, ours. And I thought of all the people in the world that never had a brother or sister.<br />
<br />
Suddenly I was sister to everybody, every human being. And for one split second, I thought about my own sex, women. And the things they had taken for granted that they should do that I'd never once thought of doing. I'd never seen a kitchen till I was 21, and that was in a store window. And so I thought about cooking. And I went to the phone and I called my book man in Chicago and I said, "Mr. Chandler, I want two books, the Bible and The Joy of Cooking." And he said, "My God, what's happened to you?" And I said, "My God has happened to me." And he had. The third thing I wanted, first prayer, then the Bible, was a minister. I couldn't have cared less what denomination and I still care nothing.<br />
<br />
We are either buses going on the same road with different labels, with Christ the chauffeur and his experience and his laws, the road rules, in which case we're all good. And if that is not so, none of us is any good. I wanted a minister, and I called a friend of mine who was a renegade Roman Catholic, "I thought you might've bumped into one." Bless her, she didn't say what do you want with a minister? But she did shock me by saying, "Do you want to go-getter or a man of God?"<br />
<br />
I said, "I want a man of God." Well, I got one. This man is shiny with love. You can warm your hands at it. When I told him what had happened to me, he smiled and he said, "Oh yes. When you get your Bible, you'll find Paul. Same thing happened to Paul on the road to Damascus, just as though it were the next whistle stop." And I said, "Can I go to your church?" And it was the first time I ever heard the words, "We have erred, and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep. We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. We have offended against thy holy laws. We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, and we have done those things which we ought not to have done. And there is no health in us, but thou, oh Lord."<br />
<br />
I thought they were written for me, and I still think so. Behind the altar in this shabby, grimy little church was, strangely, a magnificent stained glass window. There was a stained glass man kneeling in a stained glass garden. I knew who this man was. He was a Jew named Jesus, who had died for a woman named Gert Behanna. And I still think so.<br />
<br />
I would like to say, that now that I began to know a tiny bit about who it was in front of whom I had three times said, "Till death do us part," that I was allowed to make something at least decent and friendly out of one marriage. Prayers are answered, and I prayed my knees off. But very often the answer to prayer is no. This thing had happened to me. It hadn't happened to Bill Behanna. He thought I was nuts. And so I got kicked right out and I landed on the Mojave Desert in southern California. And it was there I found the deeply spiritual program of AA. I had been sober five and a half years before I went through it, and I went to give and stayed to get. And I also found that money belonged to God.<br />
<br />
By now I knew the time and energy and whatever gifts I'd been given, belonged to Him. And here I found that money did. My father's brain had made this money. I never heard of a human being brewing up a brain. This brain was a gift from God, and I decided that some of this money better go back to the donor. And then I bought a four room house with one bath that had been rather like the gate cottages I had had before. And I sat back waiting to be made Saint Gertrude.<br />
<br />
I thought, how can you miss, gal? You know who the boss is. You know Christ's laws are the road rules. You not only bought this little house, you don't have any money, but you're happy in this little house. And then a man came in my house and he looked at the living room, and he said, "This is a beautiful room. What are the proportions?" And I told him. And he said, "Oh, 800 square feet." Well, I'd never thought in terms of square footage and then I did. I realized that if this one room was in a city slum, it would have partitions down it. It would be four rooms and four people, at least, would be living in each room. And there was no danger of my being Saint Gertrude.<br />
<br />
I said to my Father, "Look, unless this house is completely used for you, one old woman can no longer indulge herself." Well, when you pray prayers like that, you'd better duck. There are some times that the five beds in my house, two of which are studio couches in the living room, are all occupied and we stand in line for the bath. Because I'd always loved men and I never liked women much, I said, "Father, send me all the old bum men, all the old broken down men." Know what happened? I am up to here in women. Didn't need to learn to love men. Born loving men.<br />
<br />
Never knew any women. Scarcely knew my mother, never had a sister. What with 10 years of Latin and Greek and all the other business, I didn't have time to have any close women friends. You can't love what you don't understand or don't know. So now I've learned to love women, and miracle of miracles, some of them have learned to love me. One came for 15 minutes and stayed for 39 months. That's love. She was the town's bad girl when she came. Alcoholic and a thief at 14. You ought to see her now. She's got a light around her. She's a trained nurse in San Francisco, and blessed are the people whom she nurses.<br />
<br />
This had nothing to do with me. I am nothing in the world but a cracked, chipped, rusty old pipeline. It just shows what odds and ends Christ can use. If any of you come up and tell me that I'm wonderful, you better take the consequences. People are always telling me, "Oh, you're so wonderful." And I used to say, "Look, I am not wonderful, it's God who's wonderful." But then they just leaned back and said, "Well, that just shows how wonderful you are."<br />
<br />
My life is jam packed. I get very tired. Sometimes I get very cross, and sometimes I get bored. And I say to our father, "God would you let me off the hook for a weekend?" And he says, "No, no, you got on this late, get going." I would not have it otherwise, of course, just more so. Talk's always the same, but then remember, so are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.<br />
<br />
My life really boils itself down to two questions that I ask myself at least every hour on the hour. The first one is, "Gert, how are you doing with Jesus Christ? How are you doing with him? What's the score?" And the other one is, "Is this for God or is this for Gert?" If it's for God, we try to do it. If it's for Gert, we try not to do it. If we don't know, we wait. I want to close now with the prayer I always close with, and I ask you not to bow your heads. This is the prayer of a long dead slave. "Oh Lord, I ain't what I want to be. Oh Lord, I ain't what I ought to be. And oh Lord, I ain't what I'm going to be. But thanks Lord, I ain't what I used to be." Amen.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: You've been listening to a presentation featuring the late speaker and writer Gertrude Behanna, here on Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh, and I hope her testimony has spoken to you. God can use anyone for his purpose and no one is beyond the reach of his redeeming love. As we wrap up this broadcast, I urge you to take advantage of our station finder feature. Go to drjamesdobson.org and click on the Family Talk radio stations button under the broadcast menu. Once you're there, you'll see a full interactive map of our radio affiliates. You can click your home state to see where and when our show will be airing near you.<br />
<br />
So don't be frustrated by constantly missing our broadcast while you are in the car or working around the house. Simply visit drjamesdobson.org and use our helpful station finder feature. Well, that's all the time we have for this week of programs here on Family Talk. Be sure to tune in again Monday for a riveting testimony from David Meece. He's a Dove Award winning Christian recording artist with a tremendous story to tell. You won't want to miss what he has to share, next time, right here on Family Talk. Hope you have a blessed weekend.<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: This is James Dobson again. As we close today's program, I just want to thank so many of you out there who make this broadcast possible with your contributions, and I want to tell you how much your generosity is appreciated."
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<br />
Dr. Dobson: Welcome everybody. I'm Dr. James Dobson and you're tuned in to Family Talk. I hope you're used to hearing these broadcast every day, Monday through Friday. They are produced by the James Dobson Family Institute. We're going to do something I think very interesting today. We're going to go back a long ways to before the time when I was on radio. I mean this goes back. And we're going to hear the recorded testimony of the late Gert Behanna. She's gone now, but she had a huge following in the 50's and 60's. And I was in a church service in the mid 1960s, this was on a Sunday night, when she was the speaker. And I've found her fascinating and when I thought about it one day not too long ago, I contacted my producers here at Family Talk and asked if they could find a recording of Gert Behanna speaking.<br />
<br />
They did it and we have it for you today. She was best known for her hit autobiography, which was titled The Late Liz, which she wrote in 1954. I've never seen that book, but it might be out there. Her story was so popular that it was later adapted into a full length feature film. That was in 1971. Sadly, Gert is gone, but throughout her life she was known as a wonderful speaker and writer. Now, what we're going to do now is let you hear one of her classic speeches by recording. Where she talked about her own troubling upbringing. I don't want to give away the story, but we're going to hear it now. Let's listen to today's presentation titled, God Isn't Dead.<br />
<br />
Gert Behanna: When I speak at Alcoholics Anonymous, I never need to tell any of them what a miracle is. Every chair is occupied by a miracle and they know it. When I speak in churches, or to enter denomination of clergy conferences, they are apt to think that it stopped with Lazarus. When I tell you what the Lord has done for me I have to tell you something about what he had to work with. He didn't have very much. And when I talk about what I used to be like, I have to talk about money. I have to talk about money because there is no possible doubt, in my mind, but what this upholstering kept me many years from meeting our Lord.<br />
<br />
Our Lord said, "Our father knows what you have need of." Not "what you want" or "what you would like," or "could use," but "what you have need of." And so when we have so much more than we have need of, there is a great wall. A great satin upholstered wall that protects us from unhappiness of others, and above all, it protects us against reality. I never saw anyone who was poor. I would see pictures of them, but pictures aren't people. I would see pictures of tenements and I would say, "My, my, how can people live in such places?"<br />
<br />
They had nothing to do with me. I had been born into a group that took it as their right that they should have permanent and excessive privileges. There is a great deal of talk, and has been for many years, about the aching back of the poor man. But there really is not enough talk about the aching heart of the rich man. The being separated from people, and because we all are snobs, my behavior, which for many, many years was totally unacceptable behavior, was accepted. And so I was never allowed to face the consequences of my own behavior. In other words, people played God with me. I was an only child brought up for the first nine years of my life in New York City, living in the old Waldorf.<br />
<br />
By the time I was seven or eight years old, I realized that my parents' own marriage was on the rocks. My father was a man of great brilliance of mind with a special genius for making money. And my mother was an extraordinarily beautiful woman and I realized quite young that I was caught between the two of them. That I had neither brilliance nor beauty. I would go places with my mother and people would do a double take and then say about me, "Well I'm sure she's nice and wholesome, anyway." To call a female, of any age, wholesome is a dirty word. There's no woman on earth who wants to be wholesome, whether she's 4, or 400. We want to be smooth and suave and sleek and femme fatales. We don't want to be wholesome. How much this affected my later delinquency, I don't know, but that it had something to do with it I'm perfectly certain.<br />
<br />
Since my parents' marriage was already rocky, my father decided that his only child was not to marry. Marriage was for fools. She was to have two or three college degrees in this country, and then go to the Sorbonne in Paris, and perhaps to Heidelberg in Germany. And then perhaps I could be the first woman ambassador to Great Britain. We still haven't had one. And then perhaps in my spare time I could find a cure for cancer. Well, I heard all of this. I knew that I would never do it. First, because I couldn't. And second, because I didn't want to. Already, the soil was being tilled for a sense of inadequacy of not measuring up.<br />
<br />
I was not a brilliant mind nor a beautiful face. And these plans that my father, whom I loved and respected inordinately, was making for me I would never carry them off.<br />
<br />
At the age of nine, I was sent to Europe to school and I was there until World War 1 blasted me back. I think perhaps it has been typical of my life that it takes a war to get rid of me. Everything has been extra dramatic, and extra traumatic.<br />
<br />
Since Smith College is not coeducational, this was the first place I'd ever been that my father couldn't go with me. This was very heady business. He had told me when to breathe and how often, what to think and how to express it, whom to know, what to wear, what to study. And to be without him was extraordinarily heady. And also, for the first time I saw girls who had beaus. I would watch these girls batting their eyelashes at young males, and telling them how wonderful they were, and the young males would swoon. If I had known that I had a soul, I would have been charmed to have sold it for the ability to make men swoon. But because North Hampton, where Smith is, is very strategically located, it's surrounded by men's colleges and you couldn't miss, and I didn't.<br />
<br />
In my junior year, I met a young man who was silly enough to ask me to marry him the first night we met. And because the room was rather shadowy, instead of saying yes, I said, "When?" I thought, wait till he gets me out in the light and sees how wholesome I am.<br />
<br />
I had no idea that marriage was what the Roman Catholic Church, and our own, the Episcopal Church, calls a holy sacrament. That it was a holy state. There wouldn't have been anyone who could have told me.<br />
<br />
My father and mother could not have been more moral, more responsible, more ethical people. But there was no God whatsoever, and of course, there was no prayer. And surely I do not need to tell you that knowing and serving God is not necessarily synonymous with church membership. Nor had I ever seen a Bible. I had seen the Great Gutenberg Bible under glass in museums in Europe. I had seen the beautiful early illumined manuscripts from ancient monasteries, but I had never seen a Bible. I'd never known anyone who had one. So there wasn't any way for me to have known that marriage was a holy state. I married this foolish young man for just two reasons. First, to get away from my father's inordinate demands upon me. And second, because I didn't think anybody else would ever ask me. Really, very simple reasons. The marriage should not have succeeded based on such reasons and it didn't. It lasted five years. Out of this marriage, I had a son. A son who graduated from 10 years on skid row.<br />
<br />
Still sobriety hangs by a thread. He has not found Christ under the highly spiritual program of AA, or in any church group, from any minister, or any lay Christian. I am absolutely positive that it is the power of prayer that has gotten him, and is keeping him, sober. This sense of inadequacy that I had had as a child, after the failure of my first marriage, of course, grew into a real and active guilt.<br />
<br />
I left Smith the end of my junior year because a husband seemed more important at that moment than a diploma. And so I looked around for husband number two. The only prerequisite for husband number two was that he be as unlike husband number one as possible. Husband number one had been very dashing. Therefore, husband number two must be a nice quiet harbor.<br />
<br />
Well, I got one. I didn't know how quiet a harbor could be. When I came to write a book, The Late Liz, about all of this, husband number two and I were married for 14 years and I couldn't think of anything he'd ever said. Well, you have to say something in 14 years. So whatever husband number two says in The Late Liz, it's what I think he might have said. It was in this second marriage that I became an alcoholic. As I talk about liquor, I beg of you not to be comfortable. I beg of you not lean back and say what a brave little old woman to talk about her sin. Whatever are yours, let's put them in the place of mine and we'll take it from there. Paul said, "All have sinned, and all are guilty." and I presume this includes you.<br />
<br />
Alcoholism is merely a mode of escapism. It is something we get on to run away from our responsibilities in this ugly world. When sobriety is attained by the alcoholic, the sins that caused the escapism still remain. And now that I have graduated to the Christian sins I really find these much more difficult than the sins of the flesh. When anyone is committing adultery, I assure you he/she knows it.<br />
<br />
When you fall down drunk, I assure you we know it, or I also assure you somebody will be kind enough to tell us. But these snide little Christian sins, am I proud of not being proud? I notice that when Christian speakers, speakers for our Lord, deeply sincere, dedicated people get together, they begin to compete. How many souls have you led to Christ, they say. Oh, I'm just appalled. Every single group has its paramount sins, and pride is one of ours. I discovered the other day that I am a snob. I am a snob about snobs. I look down on people who look down on people. Though if by chance one of your sins is to look down on drunks, that will do just fine for a sin. Just fine.<br />
<br />
Because actually, you see what that does, that sets you above our Lord Jesus Christ who announced that he came, that was his purpose, to save sinners. So if you look down on us drunks, this is really setting yourself pretty high, isn't it? And self-righteousness, oh that's a peach of a sin, that'll do just fine. I can't make out anywhere where our Lord forgave the Pharisees. Nowhere along the line. And if you are self-appointed martyrs, the president of the poor me club, that'll do just fine as a sin.<br />
<br />
Alcoholism, in my case specifically, surely was the result of mounting shame. Escapism due to knowing nowhere to turn. Knowing no God, God was a swear word. Knowing no one, my father long since dead, and anyway long since disgusted with me. The first marriage had failed. The second marriage was failing, and I was the only constant factor in all these situations. I was my parents' only child. Here were two men, one woman named Gert. It had to be me.<br />
<br />
Along with alcoholism, shortly, within a year or so I began to take drugs. With all of the servants in the house all I had to do for breakfast, about 11:00 in the morning was to push a button, and the breakfast came up. I would spend a few minutes dawdling with that. Then I would take Benzedrine to get me up. Somewhat later, not much, liquor to keep me up, and then sleeping pills to knock me out. Well, this makes a very short day. There were only about two hours when I was even approximately compos mentis. As I look back on that woman, I know completely, utterly, basically, what it means to be born again because I am not that woman.<br />
<br />
There she goes, and I look at her with compassion, overwhelming distaste, and some amusement. Of course, self-pity set in. One of the most dread of diseases. If you do not blame yourself, you must blame someone, and so I would try to conjure up some blame for my parents, my first husband, my then husband. I could not blame myself because I was not ready to do anything about this state, and anyway I didn't know what to do. Out of this marriage too, I had a son. A son who is now an episcopal rector.<br />
<br />
Again, I can understand personally, and completely, the words of our Lord. Blessed are the pure in heart. Bart has always been good. Not goody good, God forbid, but good. His brother and I have always seemed to have to learn everything the very hardest way. Bart has always been loving, always been strong, always been honest. And when, through me, Christ was presented to him he did what [inaudible 00:19:34] calls crossing the stream at the narrowest part, and went on up the other side. And spiritually, I've hardly seen him since. He's so far ahead of me.<br />
<br />
Bill and I have always seemed to have to wallow against the tide, against the great breakers. Banged back and forth, sucked down by sea purses wallowing in the sand. And Bart has been the pure in heart and oh, so blessed. I left this good and rich, though boring man at the end of 14 years and married another man four months later for the pure and simple reason that somebody told me I couldn't get it.<br />
<br />
However, you will all be delighted to know that husband number three and I deserved each other.<br />
<br />
This lasted 12 years and it was real mayhem. My first two husbands had been from the right side of the tracks. When I yelled divorce, which of course I increasingly did, they would say, "Oh, what would we do without you?" Number three was from the wrong side of the tracks. He didn't know the rules with the very rich. And I yelled divorce just once too often and he said, "Get going." Of course I couldn't take it. I'd never taken anything else and I couldn't take this and so I tried to take my life.<br />
<br />
I took 45 grains of seconal, cold sober, on an empty stomach. When I came to write my book, I had a doctor friend of mine check the book for possible medical inaccuracies and he said, "Gert, if you say you took 45 grains, that's what you took. But don't put it in your book because anywhere from 10 to 20 is a lethal dose." Now, I didn't throw up, they did not get to me in time to use the stomach pump. I am not suggesting for a moment that God stopped the cosmic machinery so that one Gert Behanna could stand here and speak, but I do know that I should have died because my younger son had been overseas in World War 2, in the second marine division. He had had great experience with death, and near death, and this was practically his mother's homecoming present to him that he should find her body.<br />
<br />
Knowing what to do, he let me lie there and called the doctor, and the ambulance, and the hospital. And I woke up 36 hours later in a hospital room with a great many tubes in it. All of them ending in me. I had failed my parents. I had now failed three husbands. I had failed two sons. I had put a blight on every life that was even remotely connected with mine. I wanted to leave life because life was intolerable. The thought that there was another world, a place which might follow this, and this be the testing time of such a place, that you might enter the grade for which you had prepared yourself here never entered my mind.<br />
<br />
I wanted extinction because I was without hope. I was in the hospital for four days and, in this incredibly palpable misery that surrounded me, I returned to my house which was not a home. And at midnight the first night, the phone rang saying that my mother had died in California. With the very rich, there is the biggest nonsense called sportsmanship, so with great sportsmanship I arose from my self-inflicted bed of pain to go out to California to inherit more money.<br />
<br />
Can you imagine anything more absurd than the bravery which I wrapped around myself?<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: You've been listening to Family Talk and a presentation by the late Gertrude Behanna. I'm Roger Marsh and I pray that you have been blessed by what she shared today. Did you know that you can get in touch with Family Talk using our social media pages? Keep up with us by searching for Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. Our profiles are full of godly content that you'll want to share with your friends and family. Listen to past and popular broadcasts, read Dr. Dobson's newsletters, or just enjoy the articles we've posted. Go now and follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube and be sure to join us again tomorrow for the conclusion of Gertrude Behanna's powerful and convicting testimony. I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks for listening.<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Dr. Tim Clinton: Hi, I'm doctor Tim Clinton from the American Association of Christian Counselors. Family Talk is a listener supported program. I encourage you to support Dr. Dobson, his ministry, and this program. You can find us at drjamesdobson.org. Join forces today with Dr. Dobson as he continues to stand in the gap."
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          string(26258) "Dr. Tim Clinton: Hi everyone. This is Dr. Tim Clinton. Thank you so much for listening today to Family Talk, a radio production of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I wanted to take a moment to tell you a little bit about our growing ministry here. This new institute is continuing Dr. Dobson's life work by fighting for marriages and families. It's no secret that our Christian values are under attack and we must stand up for righteousness and Biblical truth, unashamedly.<br />
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We believe this new institute is doing just that. I urge you, take a moment would you, to learn more at the dobsonfamilyinstitute.com. Dobsonfamilyinstitute.com. Aside from our Family Talk broadcasts, there are three other divisions through which we're continuing this legacy of work. The first one is our educational partnerships with colleges and universities to encourage the next generation. Secondly, is the Dobson Policy Center. It keeps you informed on how the political arena influences the family, and lastly is our online collection of all of Dr. Dobson's work in the Dobson digital library.<br />
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We're excited here at JDFI for this expansion. We hope you'll partner with us. Go to dobsonfamilyinstitute.com and discover more about each of these divisions, maybe how you can be a part. Thanks for standing with us and thanks for being a friend of the family.<br />
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Announcer: Today on Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: The traditional wedding vows that couples recite include a promise to love one another for better or worse. This idea of a lifelong marriage was conceived by God and not to be entered into lightly.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: It's a holy ordinance we entered into. It's a covenant. It's more than just a temporary partnership before God. God was in the midst of our marriage and we made a promise and it reflects the promise He made to Israel. If you remember the story where God made a covenant with Israel, it was a one way covenant. Olivia made a one way promise to me and I made a one way promise to her.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: That was one of today's guests here on Family Talk, Kurt Bruner. What he said is absolutely correct. A successful marriage is built on the pillar of commitment to one another and to God. Today we're continuing a classic Family Talk broadcast featuring Dr. Dobson and two happy and devoted couples. The first is Kurt and Olivia Bruner. Kurt is the COO of Open Doors International, a ministry that supports persecuted believers around the world. He and his wife, Olivia, are successful authors and have raised four children.<br />
<br />
Now the other couple that joined that discussion was Al and Jo Ann Janssen. They are authors and active members of many ministries around the country. Today the Janssens and Bruners will identify what it means to remain faithful in marriage. They'll also talk to those in broken relationships in need of restoration.<br />
<br />
Let's listen to the second part of this broadcast now. We've titled it "Reflecting God's Love Story in Your Marriage." You're listening to Family Talk, a production of the James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Let's really get down to the details here. Suppose you're talking to a young mother who has got a couple of kids in the preschool years and she's handling them pretty much on her own, she has realized now for the first time that the man she married is not who she thought he was. She thought he was disciplined, she thought he was caring, she thought he loved children, she thought he would spend money wisely, she thought that he was going to continue in a love relationship with her, and by love I mean an emotional, caring relationship.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: And it's not happening.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And now it's not happening and she's convinced it's never going to happen and you talk to her about covenant marriage and she looks at you askance and says, "I have no idea what you mean."<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Well you know what, Al addresses that in the book too where he talks about the one sided marriage, the person who feels like they are doing it on their own and there is story after story, good friends of ours, where they entered into marriage just like that and after a while when she realized it's not happening, what she did instead was do her part. She did the right thing, even if he wasn't doing the right thing. She was responsible to him and she continued to do the right thing in the covenant marriage, because a lot of times in a covenant only one person's being the hero at a time.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: In the scriptures, there's an example where God actually called someone to live in that kind of a marriage for His purposes, that that person may have never understood, and that was Hosea.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yes.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: You go marry a prostitute who will be unfaithful to you every day of your marriage. You're going to have to keep calling her back. You're going to have to keep buying her back from prostitution. Hosea, I doubt, ever had a happy day of marriage in his entire life, but God had called him specifically to a purpose to tell a story that he had no idea he was part of. I believe that occurs today. I believe our relationship to our spouse is an expression of worship in the relationship to the God that we serve.<br />
<br />
Seeing it that way brings you into the transcendent picture that's bigger than the daily grind. It infuses meaning. You remember Viktor Frankl, the psychiatrist who wrote the book "Man's Search for Meaning." He was one who survived a concentration camp and he made this observation, those who sensed there was a purpose in their suffering survived. Those who didn't, went mad or died.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That concept is so foreign to who we are. It's almost un-American. Almost.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: Oh yeah.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: To think of living in an unhappy relationship because it's the right thing to do, and yet that's what the scriptures say isn't it, Jo Ann?<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: Absolutely. You gotta believe it and you gotta do it. Somewhere along the line you know there's some deferred hope or joy, but-<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: There is. There is.<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: That's what keeps you going.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: I think one thing that I would add to that is that a spouse who's feeling they're in a one-sided relationship can do the right thing, Ephesians says, as unto the Lord. So when my wife doesn't feel like fixing dinner, and that's a little thing, but I come home and sometimes she'll say to me at night, I'll say, "Thank you for a wonderful meal," and she'll say, "Well I really didn't feel like doing it." Well, if you're not getting the response back from your spouse, you can say, "Lord, this is for You." I believe that's why this marriage picture is in scripture. That's what He wants us to see, that's what He wants us to experience.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: There is an element of hope here that we're not talking about. I taught a Sunday School class of young married couples for ten years or so and I dealt with a lot of men and women during that time who were involved in infidelity and all kinds of difficulties. They'd fallen out of love with each other and the amazing thing is about half of them not only survived but actually fell in love with each other all over again.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Yes.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: You can have it back.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That's right.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Those friends that I was talking about earlier, that's what's happened with them. It's been so neat. They've been married 40 years now and he will say, "I was a jerk back then." He'll admit it and he knows he was, but for about 12 years he never said it. She had to continue to be the hero in that relationship not hearing it from him.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: And if she had left, and she from the American perspective, she was not happy. We know this couple as well. The world would have said she had every right to leave and follow her own desires, but today, this couple is a picture to both of us that here's a beautiful picture because she was heroic in her love and her husband rises up today and calls her blessed.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Kurt, we've talked about heroes several times here. What do you mean by that phrase?<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: I think this is the critical message of the book, but the critical message of what marriage is. All of what we've discussed so far, we never even have gotten into yet, the passionate marriage. God's marriage is also a passionate marriage. There is the thrill and the excitement that comes with that, so it's not all, "Stick to it whether you like it or not," type of thing. I think all of us around the table have had our wonderful times and our difficult times, but all of this builds. I think of it as a drama unfolding. Every great drama has some type of a tension that has to be resolved and it needs a hero. Every great drama needs a hero.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: Well, all of the difficulty that we've talked about, all of the ... the fact that God has an unfaithful spouse and the fact that God said, "And if you are unfaithful, I'll pay the price," where does that point us? It points us to the ultimate hero of history and of our lives, Jesus Christ. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who did what? Who gave up everything for us. The essence of being heroic is giving up yourself for someone else. Christ did it by giving his life, I may do it by biting my tongue when I know I'm right in the argument. But it's-<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Wait a minute, here.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: It would really be kind of fitting for us to all have a big fight wouldn't it?<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: But it could be ... it could go all the way to someone who spends their entire life as a spouse like Hosea, who's faithful, who gives love, who serves their part of the covenant, and it never comes back. It really never does until that moment on the other side when they hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant. Now enter into the joy of your true marriage to me."<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: I think marriage is really about, over a lifetime, learning to lose yourself and give up your selfishness and there's no better place to learn that lesson that our Lord said of, "He who seeks to find life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." Marriage is the place to learn that.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: The thought that comes to me is when God got married to mankind, He knew He was marrying a fallen creature who would fail. I think back to, Al paints a beautiful picture in the book, of the first marriage before the fall. What was it like for Adam and Eve, and he tells the story. But then comes the fall. The scriptures say that when Eve was tempted and took the fruit that Adam was right there with her. He wasn't off somewhere else, he was right there with her and he ... he paints a picture of what would have happened had Adam been heroic at that moment, rather than going along? Could he have stood up and said, "Wait a minute. Take my life instead of hers?" What might have happened if he was heroic? But he wasn't. He was a coward and husbands have been cowards ever since. But that's the impact of the fall, and when that young lady or young man's getting married, recognize you're marrying a fallen person and the covenant you're making is one way, whether it ever comes back to you or not.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: If he seems perfect, there's something wrong.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: He's lying.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: That's very true.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: There's something wrong with the contract there.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: There's only been one or two of those kind of husbands and Olivia got one of them.<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: I got the other one, yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: We're talking about the book, "The Marriage Masterpiece, A Bold New Vision For Your Marriage." This is not a how-to book, is it?<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: No it isn't.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: I think there will be helpful insights. I hope there will be, of how to apply it, but primarily it's about what is the meaning in my marriage and where is this heading and why do I do the things that I need to do in my marriage to make it work?<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: I was gonna say that the how-to, there are many, many great how-to books.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Absolutely.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: When we went into this project, this was the idea. We don't need right now another how-to. We've got to remind the people of God what this is all about, why marriage, what is marriage, and I would describe it as an inspirational book. You read this book and the passion ignites again of there's a purpose behind all of this, I'm not just trapped in the daily grind. It's about something bigger than me and therefore it infuses meaning in every part of life.<br />
<br />
Within that context, the how-to is critical. If you're in a fighting marriage as described here, you probably need "Love Must Be Tough," sometimes. You need the how-to of "Love Must Be Tough." What do you do when there's a crisis? But if you don't have the commitment to know that it's about something bigger, why even go through the crisis? Why even be tough?<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Kurt, this subtitle is interesting. You call it a "bold new vision for your marriage." This is as old as mankind. The scriptures [crosstalk 00:12:45].<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: Isn't that sad, that we've had [crosstalk 00:12:47]<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Are we saying, are you saying, that this is not being taught in churches?<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: Well, when we began brainstorming the concepts in this, we realized we can't find this anywhere. We can't find this information anywhere. There were bits and pieces, but no one has painted the grand masterpiece in one Sistine Chapel, if you will, to let us see the whole thing and say, "Wow. That's what it's about." We all probably would say we believe this, we would all say that, "Yeah, I agree with that," but we haven't entered in and experienced it the way I think it's been painted here.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I tell you what, when it functions as designed it's a wonderful thing.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: It sure is.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Shirley and I have had these 41 years and like everybody else, there have been more difficult years than others. There was the year Shirley broke her leg and Ryan was two years of age and I had to be Mr. Mom and we were halfway through rebuilding a house and we were living in plaster dust, so we had our-<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Yeah, that was a little stressful.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Our tough years, but never to the point of questioning for a second that we did the right thing. I've said many times I would not be sitting here, would not be doing what I'm doing if it were not for the support and love and encouragement that Shirley gave me. She is the greatest gift to me.<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: Amen.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I have ever had and when you do enter in to that kind of relationship, it is marvelous.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Dr. Dobson, could I just say on top of that that you and Shirley are a picture to Jo and me of what it should be like, and one of the things that I think is so important and the reason I believe so passionately that Christians need to get this picture in their heads is the world is looking and we have a message to give to the world, but in many times it's a message that's pictured, not spoken. For Jo and me, couples that have been married 50, 60, 70 years and have been faithful to the Lord are a tremendous inspiration to us.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And they're fewer and fewer out there.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Unfortunately there are. Christian couples would see that yes, times are tough right now, we're going through a difficult period, but there's a beautiful picture that's being painted and then later on we'll see it, but not just us, others will see it around us. I think of one couple that - tremendous inspiration to us - for the last 15 years of their marriage before they passed away, she had Alzheimer's. And for the last eight or nine years, she pretty much couldn't communicate with her husband at all and the way he loved her was such a picture to me of the beauty of love and gave me an insight into what God is like. That's what the stakes are.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I know a family like that right now where the husband is taking care of his wife who has Alzheimer's and he treats her like a queen, like an absolute queen. She can give him very little back in return.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: I'm also sensitive to the listener who hears that and says, "You know, if your mate can't, it's a little easier to be heroic than if your mate won't." They won't give back even though they could. Al does a beautiful job of pointing the hope that's even in that situation. It's not just a message to those who have the situations that are easy to handle.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You know, Kurt, I think it's important to say right here that we're not talking about trying to be a hero when your spouse is physically abusing you or having repeated affairs for which he or she is unrepentant. There are certain situations where you do need to practice tough love and perhaps even separate for a while and get some help and then see if there's any possible way to reconcile or come back together. I wrote about that of course in my book, "Love Must Be Tough."<br />
<br />
Kurt, I don't think I've ever asked anybody to role play a prayer, a kind of a conversation with God before, but I'm gonna ask you to do that now. I'm probably gonna put you on the spot just a little bit, but let's suppose you're in a loveless, passionless marriage and that's been going on for 10 years and you want to do what's right. You want a covenant marriage and you get on your knees before the Lord, and what do you say to Him?<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: God, first of all I feel betrayed. I thought this was gonna be better than it is. I want to be honest with you about that, and I'm mad. I'm angry about it. But I have to believe and hold on to the fact that you've told me you're gonna be faithful and that you've called me to something bigger than what I'm living, and so what I'm gonna ask you for is the grace, every single day, to live what you've called me to live. I'm also gonna believe, my hope comes and whether it's in this life or if it's in the life to come, you're gonna say to me, "Well done." You're gonna smile. You're gonna put your arm around me and you're gonna say, "Now I'm gonna show you what marriage is really about. Enter into my intimacy."<br />
<br />
I believe you're gonna say to me as you wipe my tears, "You know the moment when you most wanted to throw in the towel? That's the well done good and faithful servant moment because you didn't." If I don't believe that, then I will throw in the towel. But I need Your grace right now, because I'm mad at You and I'm mad at my mate. You've gotta sustain me.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I believe the Lord will honor that prayer too. Don't you? You have tears in your eyes, Olivia.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: God's faithfulness has got to be motivation for the reason we're faithful to our spouse. His faithfulness to us is a huge motivation so that we can continue to be faithful to our spouse.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Jo Ann?<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: I don't talk very good when I'm crying. That was beautiful, Kurt.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You realize we're talking to people who could pray that prayer.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Lots of people.<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: That's exactly what hit me because I know people that need to be praying that prayer on an hourly basis and I know people that probably didn't pray that prayer and gave up. That's a disaster to me, that's a heartbreak.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Thank God our Lord didn't give up in Gethsemane because He prayed a prayer like that saying, "Lord. I don't want to go through this, but not my will but Thy will be done."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: What we have to understand is that the Lord has neither called us to be happy or promised us that we would be happy. He has promised us to walk with us. There may be circumstances like you described with Hosea where it is tough, it is difficult, and yet He will, I think, honor the kind of prayer that you prayed, Kurt.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: I love the picture painted by J.R.R. Tolkien in his Lord of the Rings book where he has these characters who are going through a very terrible time and they're talking about stories, and they realize they're in a story and they say, "You know, sometimes the story you're chosen to be in is not the greatest part to play but it's the best story to read." I believe some day the story of every single marriage is gonna be read and the best ones are the ones most people wish they were never in, but they were faithful and they were heroic and that's what we're called to be.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Al, give us a bottom line for your book.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: God has given us the model for marriage and that model is Himself. He has experienced everything in His marriage that I believe we as human beings experience in our marriage. Despite pain and disappointment and anger, He has been faithful to His beloved. His model and His picture is an inspiration to us and to me to go the distance in our marriage.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: The title of the book again is "The Marriage Masterpiece, A Bold New Vision For Your Marriage," by Al Janssen. Jo Ann you played a role in this.<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: I read every word of every edition of every thought. Yes. I keep reading it. It's an important book. I'm very touched that my husband wrote it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And it has your input in it as well.<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: Oh there's lots of Al and Jo Ann stories. Yes, there is, there's a lot of input there.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Kurt Bruner, you have played a role in this book as well. You said you feel this is the most important book on marriage in the last decade or so.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: I do. I really do, because this is what we've forgotten and we need to be reminded.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Olivia, did you play a role in this book?<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: I'm just married to Kurt.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And that's good enough.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: Talk about heroic.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Yeah.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well thank you all for being our guests. I'm sure we'll get a lot of interesting mail. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of it didn't come from people who could have prayed the prayer that you prayed, Kurt, and that is the foundation, that's the basis, and anything short of that will not sustain you through the tough times.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Blessings to you all and I trust that the book will be a great success.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: Thank you.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Thank you.<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: Thank you.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Thank you, Dr. Dobson.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: I'm Roger Marsh and you've been listening to an encouraging and important broadcast here on Family Talk. I hope this discussion over the past couple of programs has challenged you to reevaluate your relationship with your spouse. Visit our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org to learn more about today's guests and the book "Your Marriage Masterpiece." That's drjamesdobson.org and then click on to the broadcast menu.<br />
<br />
If you're looking for content that relates to faith, family, and culture, sign up for Dr. Dobson's newsletter. These personal thoughts provide clarity on tough issues and encouragement for your Christian walk. Cut through the noise of everyday life and find wisdom and direction from Dr. Dobson. We want you to receive Dr. Dobson's newsletter every month so there's no obligation from you, simply call (877) 732-6825 and a member of our team will be happy to send you a copy. That number again is (877) 732-6825.<br />
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Well, that's all the time we have for today. I hope you'll join us again next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks for listening.<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
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<br />
Kurt Bruner: I think marriage was intended to be a picture of how much God loves us. And in fact, it says in Genesis when He created man and woman, the intention was that it would be a reflection of God's image. But Adam and Eve decided that they were going to go their way without God. And so, for centuries, marriage simply became a man and a woman doing their thing really apart from God. What the beauty is, is that God loves us so much and wanted us to understand what marriage was that he entered into a marriage relationship himself. The reason marriage is so important to God is that he's been in a love relationship that he calls marriage in the scriptures.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: What an incredible illustration of God's deep desire for us to have a loving and fulfilled marriage. This is Family Talk, a radio production of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh with your host, psychologist and best-selling author Dr. James Dobson. Today we are addressing God's purpose for marriage and our responsibility in that relationship. Appearing on this classic broadcast with Dr. Dobson were two experienced married couples. The first is Al and Jo Ann Janssen. They've been married for over 40 years and have provided helpful assistance and insights to numerous ministries. The two live in Colorado Springs and raise three Godly children.<br />
<br />
The other couple with Dr. Dobson were Kurt and Olivia Bruner. Kurt is the COO for Open Doors International, and at the time was pastor at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas. He and his wife Olivia are both successful authors and have four children. In just a moment they'll be explaining how the original intent and purpose for marriage has been lost. The Janssens and Bruners will also define covenant marriages and challenge couples to fight for their relationships. Here now is their conversation with Dr. Dobson on this classic broadcast of Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: So, when you all wrote this book, speaking primarily to you Al, but Jo Ann, I know you played a role in it. You were very much involved in it too Kurt.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: Well, in fact, that goes to where it began and maybe that's a good place to start. It began a year and a half ago, Al, in-<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Yes, in your office.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: ... my office. We had a whiteboard in front of us and we were discussing what is, I would say, the problem statement that led to this book. We as a Christian community, particularly the evangelical Christian community, probably have more material available to us than any peoples in history on how to better communicate in your marriage, on dealing with sex issues in your marriage, your finances, your in laws, you name the topic. I imagine we have more available at our fingertips than any group in history. We put that challenge in front of us and said, what is it that we're missing? I mean, if any group should be reflecting what marriage is intended to be, it should be the Church of Jesus Christ.<br />
<br />
You may remember a meeting we had with several religious leaders in your office where they asked you the question, Dr. Dobson, what will the world look like, what will the family look like in 10 years? And I remember as you gave your answer and you shared some things, some of which are disturbing in terms of the trends and the culture. But I remember thinking to myself and asking, "Gentlemen, I wonder if the more important question for us is, will the church look any different in 10 years than the rest of the world?" And that's what led and motivated this book. And it's a very inspirational book as we'll be able to discuss some of the themes in it. But the idea is simply this, we're missing what marriage is, and God has told us what marriage is. Its purpose, its transcendent nature, and the joy that it can be, and we're missing that by focusing exclusively, as good as they are, exclusively on tips on how to make it better. We're missing the big picture.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, we want to get to that big picture because really, if I understand the theme of the book, you're providing what might be called the grand design for a marriage. What God had in mind in the first place as revealed in His scriptures.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: That's correct. It goes back to Genesis and the Garden of Eden when God brought Adam and Eve together before the fall. And what my question was, were Adam and Eve happy in their marriage? Well, they had all the ingredients there. I mean, he gave them a tremendous adventure to go into the whole world and subdue it, to grow in knowledge. But I think even greater is He gave them himself. Marriage originally, I believe, was designed to be a three way relationship. Not just between husband and wife, but with God in the middle of that. What an exciting adventure that would be to have a world to explore with God in the middle of your marriage relationship?<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And yet they managed to mess it up.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Yeah.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Well, maybe they thought God was holding out on them. But, obviously, what they had they did not perceive was enough to satisfy them and so they went in a direction God said not to go.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You began this book with a very inspirational story having to do with the Sistine Chapel at the Vatican, and Michelangelo's work that he did there in the 16th century, describe its relationship to marriage.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Well, it's a metaphor for the way I see marriage. The Sistine Chapel, almost immediately after Michelangelo finished that incredible masterpiece, because of smoke, because of pollution, a lot of different reasons, it began to get dirty and to fade. And frankly, 100 years after it was finished, people no longer remembered what it originally looked like. Well, in the 1980s, an incredible restoration project was undertaken where they cleaned the ceiling and art experts thought they knew what was underneath, but when they discovered it, when they actually got all the grime and dirt off, the colors were so much brighter and more magnificent than anybody ever expected.<br />
<br />
And I think that's a bit of a picture of what's happened to marriage. Is God's given this beautiful picture that is called marriage, but we've so discolored it and it's been discolored by so much grime that we've pretty much forgotten what it was supposed to be.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You know, the reason that illustration touches me is that I experienced it. Shirley and I made our first trip to Europe in 1969, and I was just finishing my PhD and we were just getting started with a family and all of our responsibilities. And we traveled on $10 a day, if you can believe that. There was a book at that time that was out of Europe on $10 a day and we did it. But we were there at the Vatican and we were in the Sistine Chapel and we saw that beautiful artwork, but I had no idea that it wasn't the way Michelangelo had painted it because nobody had seen it for so long. I don't think even the officials at the Vatican knew what had been done in the early 1500s.<br />
<br />
So, we went back last year, November of last year, and I saw what had been intended in the first place and it was breathtaking. It was absolutely brilliant. Those colors were just incredible.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Now imagine, take that picture to marriage. God designed marriage before the fall of man. As soon as the fall occurred, for centuries, grime and dirt and things that discolor and mar that original masterpiece have been accumulating. And so how we perceive and see marriage on a grand scale as well as in our individual lives. We're not seeing it the way God intended it to be.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: One more thing on that chapel, there is a little swatch that was left by those who cleaned it to show you what it was before they did their work.<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: What a contrast.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: [crosstalk 00:08:08] It's just dirty and dingy and everything. And we've marveled over Michelangelo's work all these years and then you see what was really intended. What you're trying to do is clean off the grime and show marriage in the way it was originally intended.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: And what it can be even now.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yeah. Well, let's talk about the grand design. What is it? What does the scripture say? What did God have in mind as best we can tell from his writings?<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: Well, interestingly enough, I think marriage was intended to be a picture of how much God loves us and the relationship that he wants to have with us. And in fact, it says in Genesis, when He created man and woman, the intention was that it would be a reflection of God's image. But what happened in the fall was that Adam and Eve decided that they were going to go their way without God. So, for centuries, marriage simply became a man and a woman doing their thing really apart from God. What the beauty is, is that God loves us so much, He wanted us to understand what marriage was that He entered into a marriage relationship himself. And when it says in Scripture that the church is the bride of Christ. So, the reason marriage is so important to God is that He's been in a love relationship that He calls marriage in the scriptures.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Some people will be really shocked and surprised to hear that God's married. The truth of the matter is, He is.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: He is married.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: I never heard that when I was growing up in church. I've had a lot of images about God, but marriage was not one of them.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Not only is he married, he has a pretty crummy mate. It's us. We've been unfaithful, we've been insensitive, all the things you can imagine in the worst mate possible, that's what we've been to God. And yet, what has he done in response? And that reveals the masterpiece.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Let me read the scriptures on which that concept is based. For those who think that God isn't married let me share a scripture from Ezekiel 16:8. And here God is talking about Israel with whom He has entered into a covenant relationship. And symbolically it says, "Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign Lord, and you became mine." That's Ezekiel 16:8.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Deuteronomy 23:23. "Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the Lord your God with your own mouth." There's the other half. Israel and his people married God, and then one more. 1 Corinthians 6:15-17, "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never. Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit."<br />
<br />
Now, there are other scriptures that use marriage as an analogy to explain what God has done in His covenant relationship with men.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Dr. Dobson, [inaudible 00:11:52] it'll be good to mention one more and that's in Ephesians 5:31 and 32 where Paul references Genesis 1:28, where, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." And then Paul says, "This is a profound mystery for I am talking about Christ and the church." So, there it is right there the connection between what marriage was at the beginning and what it's supposed to be-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: All right, you're drawing the conclusion then that marriage itself was designed to explain to us the relationship between man and God.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: I believe marriage ... the reason masterpiece, we use the term masterpiece, is marriage is a portrait of both God himself in His relationship to man and the redemptive work that the gospel proclaims. It's all a picture of what our relationship to God is all about. And when a marriage falls apart, it's more than just sad because an individual home has been damaged. There's a portrait and a story God's trying to tell that's been ripped to shreds. And Al goes into all the different types of marriage and different emphasis of what God's marriage is like, and therefore what ours can be. And those portraits are gone forever. You know, you remember when you went to the Sistine Chapel, it's not one portrait up there. That masterwork is dozens of smaller frescoes, each telling its own little story, but all combining for an incredible masterwork.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And how much it must grieve God's heart now that we have perverted this institution of marriage, that it is being abandoned and forgotten, and being used in ways that were never intended. That people are cohabiting and they are behaving sexually without benefit of marriage. There's so many things there that obviously offend God and that symbolism of the relationship between God and man.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Olivia, would you consider your marriage to be a covenant marriage?<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Definitely. Yes I would.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: What do you mean by that?<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: I think it's a picture of what God has done for us. I think, I was telling Al before we came in that, as I've given advice to married couples over the years and I have said to them, to women, "Even if you don't feel like hugging him and kissing him when he walks in the door, you go do it." And I've been telling them you do it because God has asked you to do that. You do that because you're supposed to honor and respect your husband. What Al has done in this book is given you the why. This is why. Not just the what, but the why because it's a picture of God's love for you.<br />
<br />
And I think that's always been a little easier for me to do because I fully understand every day God's grace in my life and that I need Him and how He forgives me all things that I do wrong, and so in our marriage is not that hard for me to continually give even when I don't feel like it because I know that Kurt deserves that and I need to give that to him.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: Because I'm a great guy.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Because he's such a great guy. That's part of it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Jo Ann, would you agree that in almost every marriage there are times where you do what's right whether you feel like it or not, and that there probably are times that you don't feel like it?<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: Yes, there's a lot of times when you do not feel like it. When you're tired, when you have small children you've been dealing with, sometimes I don't even like my husband, but you get past-<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: I don't like him a lot either.<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: Most of the time he's a great guy, but I'm 49, there's hormones involved here sometimes.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Well you know, and Kurt walked in the other day, it was just a couple weeks ago and said, "Am I irritating you?" And I thought, "Oh." And I was feeling tired and overwhelmed and I thought, I am portraying to him that he's irritating and I need to stop that right away. And it was just in my response, and it really had nothing to do with him; it had everything to do with how I felt that day about myself from what I was doing. So, that's a big thing for women.<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: That's right. And I have learned because Al told me early in our marriage, "Honey, I can tell what time of the month it is by the way you talk to me."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Or the way you perceive [crosstalk 00:16:07] he's talking to you.<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: That's right. That was very convicting to me that my hormones were directing how I was treating my husband and how I perceived him. He hadn't changed, my perception had changed. And so, I have, this is an idea from Gary Smalley. There's warning lights in my head. When I start thinking negative thoughts about my husband, that's a warning light in my head that my husband hasn't changed, it's my attitude that has changed. And I have, in fact the scripture tells you this, you have a will to direct your thoughts. You do not have to think negative thoughts about your husband. You can choose to not do that and think positive thoughts about your husband and that of course affects how you treat your husband or wife, your mate, and that really helps me a lot.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Jo Ann, how would you account for the high divorce rate among Christians today? Do you have any take on that?<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: You know, that is really difficult for me because I married a man of integrity and I know our covenant is so secure. So, I figure there's a lot of men out there and women that don't have the integrity, don't have the big view, don't have the view of the masterpiece, God's picture of marriage that I happen to have with my husband.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: The Covenant itself, the traditional vows had the covenant woven into them. Al, you tell the story about you and Jo, when it was time to get married it was kind of.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: It was traditional. I mean, it was-<br />
<br />
Jo Ann Janssen: This was the 70s.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: ... Yeah, the 70s everybody wrote their own vows. And so we sat down one Sunday to write our own vows and we finally wound up with the vows that had been used for centuries. Kurt, you have those?<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: Well, this is taken from the Book of Common Prayer which the traditional wedding vows have been taken from for centuries until more recently. But when you asked Olivia, why do you have a covenant marriage? Here's why. When we got married, we said to one another, I take you to be my wedded wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part according to God's holy ordinance. And there too I plight thee my troth. It's a holy ordinance we entered into. It's a covenant. It's more than just a temporary partnership, a contractual relationship. Before God - God was in the midst of our marriage and we made a promise and it reflects the promise he made to Israel.<br />
<br />
If you remember the story where God made a covenant with Israel. It was a one way covenant. Olivia made a one way promise to me and I made a one way promise to her-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And it says nothing about how the other person performs. I mean, in our culture today, the reason I think that so many Christians and so many people in society are giving up on their marriages is because they think it's all about happiness.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Indulge yourself. Isn't that what you say in the book? Is - you were reading something, a music magazine or something and it said, indulge yourself. I love that story because it made you think that's what our culture does. "What's good for me," not, "what's good for both of us."<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: And so, we have a couple saying, "You know what, I love my partner, but she's getting in the way of my career," or, "No longer, we no longer have the happiness that we had at one time and we think it's about happiness and fulfillment." Well, these vows don't say anything about happiness and fulfillment.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Not a word.<br />
<br />
We stay married as long as it is convenient to do so. As long as it is to my advantage to do so. That's not a covenant marriage.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: Not at all.<br />
<br />
Olivia Bruner: Don't you give that example too in the book about, there's two different classes when you get married. One, you can have a no fault divorce?<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Oh, yes. In Louisiana, the state of Louisiana has given two options. One is a no fault divorce and the second is a covenant marriage. And at least at the time I finished writing this book, I don't believe there's been any divorces under the covenant marriage.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Wow. That's a wonderful piece of legislation, and we're hoping that it will spread. Explain what it really means. What is the covenant marriage from a legal perspective?<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: A covenant marriage as I understand it, first of all, requires more counseling ahead of time and a couple commits that if a divorce takes place, there's only a few conditions under which it could take place. And I believe there's a yearlong waiting period prior to that divorce where the couple agrees to get counseling and help in order to work out their progress.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That's right. It's a voluntary agreement going in that this is for life and nothing short of a disaster is going to ever separate us, and they do live by that covenant. As you've said, it's been very successful in Louisiana.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: And the beautiful thing about that, whether the state wants to admit it or not, is that is a picture of what God intended. When God entered into a covenant with Abraham, the incredible thing about that covenant is that God made the commitment to Abraham and walked that blood path in Genesis 15. He did not require Abraham to walk that blood path, but God said, I make this commitment, and even if you fail in your part, I will be faithful to the covenant.<br />
<br />
Kurt Bruner: And I will pay the price if you fail.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: And I will pay the price if you fail. He did that, I believe intentionally is a picture to us of what a marriage covenant should be.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, Al, this is a very important book, we have only gotten through a certain portion of it, probably the first third, and I do want to talk some more about the concepts that are in here because they are so foundational to the meaning of marriage. So, if you all will be back with us we'll continue next time, and thanks for being our guest today.<br />
<br />
Al Janssen: Thank you very much. We'll be glad to.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: You've been listening to Family Talk, and an important discussion on the sacredness of the marital relationship. Dr. Dobson's guests have been Kurt and Olivia Bruner and Al and Jo Janssen, I'm Roger Marsh. And if you'd like to order the book that was mentioned today, Your Marriage Masterpiece, you can learn how when you visit drjamesdobson.org. On today's broadcast page, you'll find a link to that book and also learn more about our guests as well. That's drjamesdobson.org, and then click on to the broadcast icon at the top of the page.<br />
<br />
Are you looking for valuable resources that can benefit your entire family? Well, look no further than our Dobson Digital Library at dobsonlibrary.com. This portal is a complete collection of all of Dr. Dobson's esteemed work. This library allows you to sift through as many articles and radio programs to find what you need. You can also do a broad search on topics such as marriage, faith, parenting, and culture. Whatever your family may be facing right now, we want to help you through the Dobson Digital Library. Take advantage of this great resource by visiting dobsonlibrary.com. That's dobsonlibrary.com.<br />
<br />
Well, tomorrow here on Family Talk, we'll continue this much needed discussion on the influence of a Godly marriage. I hope you join us then. I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for listening and have a blessed day.<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Dr. Tim Clinton: Hi, everyone. This is Dr. Tim Clinton, the executive director at the Dobson Family Institute, wanting to remind you that our ministry is listener supported. Your contributions allow us to continue to fight for families everywhere. You can partner with us by going to drjamesdobson.org, that's drjamesdobson.org or call us toll free at 877-732-6825. That number again, 877-732-6825. This world, you know this, needs a serious transformation of the heart. Your gift can help make a difference. I hope you'll stand with us, and thank you for being a friend of the family.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: One of the great myths about romantic love is that it's sort of a biochemical condition that inevitably lasts a lifetime. In reality, love, even when it's genuine, is a very fragile commodity. Like one popular song proclaims, love really is a lot like a rose. It must be very carefully maintained and protected if it's going to survive. When a husband or wife works seven days a week when there's no time for romantic activity, when they forget how to talk to each other, then love can die.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: During the early days of my marriage to my wife Shirley, I was working full-time, trying to finish a doctorate at the University of Southern California. Shirley was teaching school and trying to maintain our little home. I can still remember clearly the evening I realized what this busy lifestyle was doing to our relationship. We still loved each other but it'd just been too long since we'd felt that spirit of warmth and closeness. I pushed aside my textbooks that night and we went for a long walk. The following semester, I carried a very light load in school and I postponed my academic goals so as to preserve my marriage. Where does your marriage rank on your hierarchy of values? Does it get choked out by the weeds and stray branches of your busy schedule, or is it a rare rose of great worth to be preserved and gently tended? Maybe it's time to do some marital gardening.<br />
<br />
Announcer: Hear more at drjamesdobson.org."
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<br />
Dr. Dobson: Hello, everyone. This is Dr. James Dobson and you're listening to Family Talk. And I want to begin by thanking you for your prayers for this ministry. I can feel them, I know about them, we hear about them. And also for your support as we continue to fight for the family. It's important to know that the success of every family hinges on the healthy relationship between the husband and the wife. It really does come down to that. However, because we're such sinful beings, I mean we're all in that boat, conflict is bound to happen, and it does. And if hostility is not handled in a Godly way, a spouse may be profoundly hurt.<br />
<br />
Today we're going to be talking about the devastating pain some experience through emotional abuse. In a moment, you're going to hear a recording of a conversation between my colleague Dr. Tim Clinton and his guest, Dr. David Hawkins. Dr. Hawkins is a clinical psychologist with an emphasis on emotional abuse and narcissistic problems in marriage. He holds three masters' degrees and a PhD. Dr. Hawkins currently serves as the Director of the Marriage Recovery Center in Seattle, Washington, which seeks to heal broken relationships. He has personally seen thousands of marriages restored through counseling since he began working in this field in 1976.<br />
<br />
As we get started with our program today, Dr. Hawkins explains just what emotional abuse and narcissism look like, and how couples can find healing and restoration from these issues. Here is that discussion on this edition of Family Talk, a production of the James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Dr. Hawkins, thank you for joining us.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Well, Dr. Clinton, thank you for having me.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Hey, we're going to talk about a tough topic today.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Absolutely.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: But before we go there, Dave, I've spent a lot of my life trying to teach young leaders, young people that the most important issue in life is this issue of relationships. Your relationship with God, and we know this, the most important decision you'll make apart from your relationship with God is who you're going to choose to spend the rest of your life with.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: That's right.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Because it matters David. Getting it right is everything. And there's nothing more beautiful in all the world than to be in a relationship with someone who is supposed to love you and they actually what? Love you. And nothing more difficult in all the world than to be in a relationship with someone who is supposed to love and they don't love you. Today, we're going to talk about a special work of yours, a brand new piece. I mean, it's exploding. The book's entitled When Loving Him Is Hurting You: Help and Hope for Women Dealing with Narcissism and Emotional Abuse. David, you've spent a lot of time working with these kinds of individuals in these kinds of marriages. Let's take a step in that direction. We're not going to beat up on men today. That's not what this is about David, right? We're not here to beat up on men at all.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Absolutely not Dr. Clinton.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Our prayer is that God continues to raise up men to take their rightful place in the home and church and community, and we stand boldly for men. But we do recognize there are some situations, especially when it comes to this issue of narcissism and emotional abuse. Well, we've got to deal with this and take it head on. Your opening line piece on your book is this, "You fell in love with him, but over time you've come to realize he's in love with himself, and you're trapped. It's all about his needs, his problems, his plans and they seem to take precedence over yours." Everybody just turned the radio dial up. David, tell us about why you got interested in this.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: My goodness. Dr. Clinton, I have counseled thousands and thousands of couples now over the past, well, 30, 40 years of my practice. But over the past 10 to 12 years, especially, so many couples have come to me, and they have what is called covert emotional abuse and narcissism. Now it's called covert because it's subtle. We all know about domestic violence, we know about hitting, kicking, screaming yelling, blocking that ... We know about that stuff. We're finally up to speed on that, but we're not up to speed on the covert, subtle aspects of relationships that go awry, Dr. Clinton. Such as complaining, constant complaining, nagging, criticizing, power and control issues. And men, back to ... We're not beating up on men. Men aren't trying to be this way.<br />
<br />
We often sit back and think, they're just trying to control me, they're trying to ... They're not, they're not. And yet I fall prey at times to being too powerful at times, too much involved in my own self-importance, and so men do that. And when they become overly preoccupied with their self-importance, they often have degrees, they often have accomplishment, they often have financial prosperity. They've done a lot of things and then taken up with all of that, this self-importance. Now what happens gradually Dr. Clinton, is their importance grows and then you can imagine what happens then in the relationship, her importance diminishes and she starts to feel invisible. And therein begins this incredibly tragic problem, that I am I'm glad that I'm part of a solution to help unpack it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: I know Paul in Romans chapter seven talked about the things he would do he didn't, and the things he wouldn't do, that's what he did. And he said daily he had to reckon and yield his life to Christ. I know in our marriage early on Julie I had a hard time David, we almost didn't make it. And we've told our story ... As matter of fact I remember what it was like to sit alone in an apartment with everything in a storage place, and to have my wife who I loved but couldn't get along with, 2000 miles away from me. I remember calling out there and her daddy answering the phone, not a good day.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Not a good day.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Not a good day, and he said, "Tim, I don't think you guys are gonna make it."<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Oh my.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: And you know what? God began to do something. But David, I know in life there are times when I don't mean to, but I choose for myself over Julie. And if I don't pick up on it too quick she'll remind me and let me know.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Good for her, by the way.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: And we make adjustments you know that? And she would tell you the same thing. That there are times ... There's this natural propensity to often choose yourself above your spouse, you know that? Place your wants needs above hers or above his. But David where does this start to become problematic? I mean it's all problematic, but we're talking about a word "narcissism" here for a moment. I want you to define it and take us into the weeds here in a good way, where are we going?<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Sure. Well you know the weeds ... Unfortunately, there's a lot of information and misinformation out there. The media out there says, "Oh my goodness, if you are narcissistic there is no hope for you." And I tell you, I've worked with thousands of men, and I'm happy to say, "No, that's not generally the case." If, if big IF, capital I, capital F here. IF an intervention will take place in this marriage with this couple, and if the man will avail himself and the woman, and the woman. Some women are gasping out there that I'm ... "Wait a minute now." That also goes against the grain because it's ... The man is the narcissist, the woman is ... Well, sometimes the lines blur. Anyway, so if an intervention takes place, then what I see is that narcissism is actually on a spectrum, Dr. Clinton, it's on the spectrum.<br />
<br />
And that has really gained some putting out there. We get that. That clinicians are seeing, yeah, it's really not either you are or you aren't. It's not that; there is a gradation. And all of us by the way, are on that gradation somewhere. There's a little bit of narcissism in everyone, and obviously it becomes pathological when there's an excessive amount of grandiosity, entitlement, self-importance, admiration. I'm working with thousands, over the years, of men who fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. And if an intervention takes place, they are amenable to treatment. Again, this goes against, completely against what you'll read about out there, which talks about malignant narcissism and so on.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: We're not talking about leadership or headship, Godly servanthood here. We're talking about somebody, it's the old Toby Keith song, "I want to talk about me, I want to talk about me, me, me, me, me." It's the me factor-<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: It is.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: ... to the nth degree.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: It is the me factor.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Where you don't exist, you don't have any input. I'm telling you what we're doing.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: This power and control that you're talking about, it's subtle. It begins gradually, and so we often have these very accomplished men, these very charismatic men. Yes, leaders.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Control freak stuff here, is that what we're talking about?<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: They become control freaks. It's gradual. It happens ... The average age of a person coming to me is 45, 50, 55, 60. Okay, I get very few 20 year-olds that are coming to me saying, "Hey ...", or the woman saying, "Look, my husband is this." It gradually over time, Dr. Clinton. You can just imagine this, the self-importance. The accomplishments are happening, and so he has reason to feel pretty good about himself. He's accomplished a lot, he's a powerful man in the workplace. He's a powerful man in church. He's a powerful man. You know that, that Scripture says, "Do not think more highly of yourself, then you ought to think." That just becomes insidious. And then again, his ego grows, herself diminishes, and now you've got a real pathology in the relationship.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: You mentioned earlier a little bit of a continuum-<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: ... that people were talking about. Maybe some traits, and I guess to an extent we all have a little self in here.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: But narcissistic personality disorder is a classification in and of itself.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Correct.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: That would be in what the mental health field would call the DSM.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: And so the Diagnostic Statistical Manual.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: What are the unique features of that classification? Where someone would check the box, or boxes and say, "You, you really are in this category." What is that?<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: They have to seek admiration, and seek the admiration of others. They have a sense of entitlement, they have a sense of grandiosity. They believe they are better than others, and they really have that firm and rigid belief about that. They lack an ability to really empathize. This is a key one. In fact, I want to land on this one, Dr. Clinton. They lack the ability to empathize with others. Now, just pausing there for a moment. That's a bedrock of a relationship, the ability to sit with another person and to really get what they're feeling and thinking. If your mate lacks empathy, that is one of the foundational keys of whether you're going to be diagnosed with NPD. Now, what's interesting, I'm going to veer off of that Dr. Clinton just a little bit, is when you have a conflictual relationship, it's probably lacking in empathy anyway, so the issue becomes convoluted. Is this person, is this man really an NPD, or have they been involved in an adversarial relationship for a long, long time, and it's very, very hard to dissect it, to piece it apart and find out, "Okay, does he meet the criteria of NPD? Or, does he partially meet that criteria?<br />
<br />
Is he on that spectrum? And is there a conflictual adversarial relationship that mitigates against empathy?<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: I'm imagining her in this relationship for a moment. Obviously doesn't probably feel much emotional connection.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: No.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Doesn't feel love.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: None.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Doesn't feel like she has a place. Probably is controlled in pretty much every area. Connect the dot, in your book, When Loving Him Is Hurting You, you connect NPD Narcissistic Personality Disorder with emotional abuse. I know it's a little bit controversial, but help us go there for a minute. What does that look like?<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: If a man is on that spectrum, anywhere on the spectrum by the way, then he's going to use defenses to self-protect. He's a wounded little boy. Okay, these men are wounded little boys.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: So they're really maybe in some way protecting themselves?<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Absolutely protecting themselves.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Insulating their world [crosstalk 00:13:09] from being harder violated. In other words, they don't trust relationships, is that what I hear you saying?<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Absolutely correct.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: They don't feel safe in them.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: My current theory, it's a theory, but I've seen it play out many times. Is that narcissism is really self-protection, so I use defenses. I use denial, rationalization, minimization, justification, sanitization, blame shifting, gaslighting. All of those terms that many of our listeners are familiar with, it's all an effort to protect myself. I'm really okay. You know that denial the stands for, Don't Even Notice I Am Lying to myself. D-E-N-I-A-L. So, I protect myself, so you, so the wife has a criticism; come on, in every relationship, there's going to be criticism. And this wounded little boy is saying, "I can't stand it. I have an ego that I've got to protect. And so I'm going to use denial, rationalization, minimization. I'm going to use all of those." And Dr. Clinton, the incredible damage that is done when a woman comes to a man and says, "Look, I've got a problem I need to bring to you. I have a concern."<br />
<br />
Oh no, you have that same problem. No, I didn't do it. No, I wasn't there. I've got an explanation, I've got a rationalization. And so now we have crazy making. And indeed now she feels crazy, and now she's diminished, and now his importance rises, her importance lowers, and now the rift between them grows and grows and grows, and now she becomes more and more invisible, and she develops ... We haven't talked about this yet, but narcissistic victim syndrome with physiological and emotional symptoms, and now we've got even a greater problem.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Boy, I want to talk about that. You're listening to Family Talk. A program of the James Dobson Family Institute, I'm your host today Dr. Tim Clinton. Our special in studio guest at the AACC, the American Association of Christian Counselors, Mega National Conference in Dallas Texas. Dr. David Hawkins' brand new book out, fascinating subject talking about narcissism and emotional abuse. Hey, When Loving Him is Hurting You. Again today hear us. No intention of beating up men. I just love what it's like to see a man and woman in love. Matter of fact Solomon said, there are a lot of crazy things in this world, and some things he didn't understand. One of those was a man and woman falling in love. And it's a beautiful place. But we're talking about when that love stuff gets sideways.<br />
<br />
And when you're in a relationship with someone who has lost you, they don't see you. This classification you've just talked about, of being that person who is subject to this. Tell us a little bit about that.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: A woman who is treated so unfairly, consistently, chronically, the power is over her, she's powered over. You've heard that term, "powering over her." She is talked down. She's talked out of what she thinks and feels, so she becomes frightened, she becomes insecure. A healthy relationship Dr. Clinton is such a beautiful thing, like you talk about. It's the ability to really sit with our mate, and our mate to sit with us, and come let us reason together. Let's talk this through. That's health. In this relationship, we don't have that. She can't approach him because she's going to say something critical, and remember, he can't stand that.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Fascinating because it's almost like, and I've heard women describe this. They feel like they're walking on eggshells-<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Absolutely.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: ... around him all the time.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Absolutely.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: It's like they're threatened or terrified, even almost.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Another notion that I've come up with is that he can't sit with healthy shame. You and I have regrets. We look back, I look back on my life, and I try to be able to sit with feeling badly about what I've done. I've hurt my wife. I recently hurt my wife, and I needed to go to her, and I needed to say, I was sorry. She was so gentle. Christy is her name, and she was so gentle and kind. She said, "Don't worry about it." I said, "No I am going to worry about it. I don't like it. I treated you in a harsh way. I was wrong." That's hard for me to do. Men need to have that capacity to sit with healthy shame, godly sorrow, and be repentant. But many men who are on this spectrum are so well defended, and so then she can't go to him with a concern.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: And she'll get to a place where she'll start believing that maybe she does need to love him more. Maybe she needs to keep everything in order better, et cetera. That she somehow is failing this whole relationship-<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Thank you.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: ... and she's starting to believe that, and getting lost in that. And it's the insanity here and the chaos that perpetuates why ... Everybody's looking and thinking, you need to straighten him out.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Because he's flipping it back on her.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: You need to do something. You better draw ... put boundaries in place. But she can't even see her way through that moment.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: You got it. I have actually two symptoms that women bring to me again, and again, and again. One is voiceless-ness. They're voiceless. They're rendered voiceless. They just literally can't come to him with a concern, because it's just too threatening for him. And the other is exhaustion, which I'm writing more and more about. There's this physical exhaustion. They're trying to say, "Look, I'm unhappy. I don't want the sun, moon and the stars. I want to be loved. I want to be cared for."<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: All I've ever wanted is for someone to love me.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Just love me-<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Just love me.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: ... just care for me. And make it safe for me to come to you with a concern.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Years ago, I read a piece that Dr. Dobson had released. They had reviewed some research on women who were in high conflict relationships, and how they would begin to suffer in a lot of different ways, including physically. More susceptible to things like the cold, the flu, all kinds of things. Are you finding that David?<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Oh Dr. Clinton, so, quick plug for my next book. It's called In Sickness and In Health, not out yet. And the physical impact of emotional abuse on women. I am telling you Dr. Clinton, every woman that comes to me, this is every day by the way, every day. I didn't use to ask the question of how are you doing physically? I'm a psychologist, so I would say, "How are you doing emotionally?" But my two sons are physicians, and I've been talking with them, and they actually co-wrote this, my next book with me. And my son, my youngest son an internist said, "Dad, you got to ask about how are they doing physiologically? I mean how are they doing ... Are they getting headaches? Do they have anxiety? Do they have adrenal failure? Do they have fibromyalgia? [crosstalk 00:19:58] Do they have chronic fatigue.<br />
<br />
At the risk of hyperbole here, every woman that is coming to me, every woman, when I asked the question, "How are you doing physically?" They have physiological symptoms, and they are out there in the medical community, and in our clinical, emotional, psychological community seeking answers, by the way, not getting them, not getting them. They're going out there saying, "I don't feel good. I feel bad." And so understandably, doctors asked the ..., "Well what do you mean you don't feel good?" "Well, hard to describe. I'm not sleeping well, I'm not eating well. I just, I feel brain fog. I can't ..." "What do you mean brain fog?" "I can't think straight. I'm exhausted ..." Any way, so this exhaustion day in, day out, which I don't know about. I don't know if you've ever had ... So anyway, women&hellip; we're seeing an absolute epidemic.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: [crosstalk 00:20:51] which only compounds it to the nth degree.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: So now we've got an exhausted woman, and physiologically depleted, and emotionally depleted, going to a man saying, "Will you please listen to me?" And he feels threatened and says essentially, "No, I can't."<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Yeah, "Be quiet."<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: "Be quiet."<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: "I'm sick of hearing that. You need to figure out what's wrong with you. You're messed up."<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Exactly what happens.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: "I'm telling you: you need help. You're the sick one, not me." David, we're fighting the clock here. What's she going to do?<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Well-<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Is there hope.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: There absolutely is hope. I'm excited about the hope. The hope lies in intervention, Dr. Clinton. Intervention means that some step has to be taken, and she has to find resources, and there are resources out there. We have ... Thanks to you, we have more and more clinicians rising up that know about emotional abuse and narcissism. So she finds someone who will listen to her, hear her story, validate her, not give her the scriptural clich&eacute;s, "Just love him more. Just read more scripture, just pray ..." No clich&eacute;s, please. They're helping her have a voice, not a strident voice, not an angry voice. Just a clear, firm voice. Where to get the physiological help. Physicians who know about these kinds of symptomatology. Then the intervention needs to take place. And with an intervention, and here's where I go against the counterculture just a little bit. Yes, an intervention with men ... Men want to be good, healthy, strong, men, who love their ... We do. We want to be ... When I think about, "What do I want to be as a godly man?"<br />
<br />
Men will be led in that direction. But we have to be challenged to do that. Intervention must take place, and you and I, and AACC and Dr. Dobson, we're all going to be part of that. And that's exciting.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Believing for a better day.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: She's done a lot of that. And if she's depressed, I often teach counselors, there might be times when she might need personal work first.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Oh, absolutely.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: We got to get her healthy, to a place where we can do marital work.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: That might be a part of the journey here. Getting to a place where, and we now talk about in marriage work, taking couples so you can accept influence from each other. So, I see you. I love you. And my ability to be present and just to have my reach go toward you is what this is all about.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Love it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: And to have emotional connectivity going like Solomon said, "This is my beloved and my friend."<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: I love it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: That's our prayer for you today, you all. We wanted to introduce this subject because we know it's a challenge in some marriages. There's a danger for everybody to come back and say, "That's the problem." Well it may be, and that's where this kind of work could help bring clarity, and then ultimately help and hope. Our prayer for you again today is that God would be in your life, and that he would bring into your way everything necessary to lead you to a place where you love and you are loved well. Thank you for joining us, that was powerful. And we're going to do this again, I promise you.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Perfect.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: Yeah. And thanks for your heart, your message-<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Thank you.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: ... and for joining us in prayer for those who listen-<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Absolutely.<br />
<br />
Dr. Clinton: ... and join us here on Family Time.<br />
<br />
Dr. Hawkins: Amen.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: A great reminder to prioritize God in your relationship and seek his face when you experience hardship. I'm Roger Marsh, and you've been listening to a conversation featuring Dr. Tim Clinton and Dr. David Hawkins here on Family Talk. Learn more about Dr. Hawkins on today's broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org. Once you're there, you can read more about Marriage Recovery Center or how to order any of his popular books. You'll find all that and more when you go to drjamesdobson.org, and click on the broadcast button at the top of the page.<br />
<br />
Let us know your thoughts about today's edition of Family Talk by calling our listener feedback line. Our number is 877-732-6825. After you connect with us, choose the option to leave a message on our feedback line. You can share how our ministry or a specific interview has impacted you and your family. Also, feel free to provide us with a suggestion for a topic that you think we should have on the broadcast. That number for our offices here in Colorado Springs once again is 877-732-6825.<br />
<br />
Well that's all the time we have for this broadcast. Be sure to join us again next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, I'm Roger Marsh, thanks for listening.<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson, Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: This is James Dobson again. As we close today's program, I just want to thank so many of you out there who make this broadcast possible with your contributions. And I want to tell you how much your generosity is appreciated.<br />"
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