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Announcer:	Today on Family Talk.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Jesus encouraged his disciples to let their light so shine that the world might know the good news. This command especially applies to us today because of the lost and hopeless society that we live in.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Hello, everyone. Welcome to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. Family Talk, of course, is a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute. And in just a moment we'll continue Dr. Dobson's timeless conversation with the late Chuck Colson.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Now in our last program, Chuck talked about his time in prison stemming from his role in the infamous Watergate scandal. However, out of that experience, Chuck became a Christian and devoted his life to ministering to those who are incarcerated.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Today, they will turn to Chuck's book, The Body, and discuss the church's role in effectively spreading the gospel. So without further delay, here once again is Dr. James Dobson and this special edition of Family Talk.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Our guest, if you haven't guessed that by this moment, is Chuck Colson, who is an attorney. He is formerly in the Nixon administration in the White House. He's been chairman of the board of the Prison Fellowship ministry since 1984. That ministry is now ministering to prisoners and their families around the world. Chuck, how many people are involved in Prison Fellowship?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Oh, there's hundreds of thousands. I mean, we had over 150,000 volunteers during the Angel Tree program. We have 46,000 volunteers full-time. We have 80 countries.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	When I was in Korea last fall, listening to the testimonies from around the world, I was absolutely awestruck, not just by the incredible testimonies, but by the realization that I've had nothing to do with it. I mean, it's a movement of God's spirit. It's not Chuck Colson, a celebrity goes to Ethiopia and start some ministry.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	A fellow in a prison was converted in Ethiopia, in the prison. During five years in prison, he led 3,200 people to Christ. They built a church. The Marxist government is overthrown. And he now is ministering to the guards, 500 of whom have now come to Christ. And they built a church among the guards.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Now, you listen to a story like that and you realize this is God. I got a letter a few months ago, Jim, from the president of Zambia. He was just elected, the first freely elected president. They threw out the Marxist government. President Kaunda, who had been a terrible dictator, was out. And I got this wonderful warm letter from him, I had no idea why, just thanking me for Prison Fellowship and encouraging me and hoping I would do well.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, when I got to Korea, I discovered that the president had been a prisoner and in prison had been led to Christ by Prison Fellowship volunteers. And when he got out, his marriage was in trouble. And Prison Fellowship volunteers worked with him and his wife and got their marriage together. And now he's the president of the country. Will, needless to say-
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Oh my.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	He loves our ministry.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Isn't it fun when you realize you're just a little peanut in the-
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Oh my, yes.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	In the grand scheme of things?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	The ministry started in the year that I got out of prison actually. We started working in the prisons in 1975. And then I became chairman and the others became president because it's a big job to run it.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Sure.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And my job is to go out and to preach and to write books and to now, thank you, go on the radio, Jim.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Well, you are writing books. And every time one comes off your pen, we ask you to come here and let us kind of premiere it. You've just written a book called The Body: Being Light in Darkness. We just got started talking about that at the end of the program last time.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	This concerns the body of Christ, the church. This is a commentary on where the church is in society today and some of its problems, some of its potential. Just begin with an overview, Chuck, and then I've got some specific questions I want to ask you.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, I would say this, that I think the prevailing ethos in our culture today is radical individualism: everybody taking care of themselves and looking out for themselves. To a certain degree, that has penetrated the Christian world, and we begin to think about Christianity as a solitary relationship between me and Jesus. I call it the gospel of Jesus in me.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	But that's not Christianity. Christianity cannot be lived apart from the body. When Peter at that decisive moment in the New Testament, that pivotal moment in the New Testament, when Jesus turned to his disciples and said, "Who do men say that I am?" And Peter said, "Thou art the Christ." And Jesus turned to him and he did not say, "Blessed art thou, Peter. You're now born again, saved. Go home and live the abundant life." He said, "On this rock, I will build my church"-
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	"I will build my church."
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	"And the gates of hell will not stand against it." I argue in this book, which is kind of a radical thought in this individualistic era, that you cannot live the Christian life apart from the church, that you cannot experience ... I'll say this slowly because it's terribly important. You cannot experience the fullness of God's grace apart from the church. And therefore those of us who take a casual view of the church are profaning the establishment, the institution which God has supernaturally endowed for the redemption of mankind and for the witness of the kingdom to come.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	I'm kind of embarrassed to say this is a fairly recent understanding of mine, is that the church is under incredible pressure today. Gary Bower and I talked about the civil war of values that's going on and that on one side you have the media, the entertainment industry, the Congress, the court system and the White House. You have the professions, the American Bar Association, your profession represented-
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Please don't. Please don't hang that one around my neck.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Or mine, the American Psychological Association, all of these professions are all on the other side. On the side of traditional Christianity, there are only two. Only two centers of power: the church and the family.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	That's exactly right.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Now we've known the family was struggling, the family is being assaulted, the family was threatened. But until recently, I haven't fully understood the degree to which the church is being assaulted by hell itself.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, it certainly is. And we have to recognize that we are in a cosmic struggle, that the crisis is truth. The issue is, is there truth? Remember what Jesus said? "I am the truth." And remember Pilate's disdainful question, because that's what we deal with every day in our culture today. What is truth? The issue is truth. Is there such a thing as absolute truth?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	On the front lines of that cosmic struggle is the church of Jesus Christ. It is the one institution which can battle in our culture for truth. And in here in this book, I have several chapters devoted to what is the secular worldview, what is the Christian worldview, and then something which most people don't think about with the church, the phrase that Paul used in the New Testament when he once described the church as the pillar and support of the truth. That is not just something that is true, that is ultimate reality, which is found in Jesus Christ and all that flows from it.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	So the church is on the front lines. And the church is being assaulted. The church is being beleaguered. The pastors need our support and our help. And the lay people need to get behind their pastor and realize they got to participate and make that church a living vital organism in their community.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	The pastor is the focus of our concern. Now, I have the results of a survey here that I want to share with you. This came from a 1991 survey of pastors conducted by Fuller Institute, of church growth there in Pasadena, California. Listen to these statistics.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	70% of the pastors say they don't have anyone that they consider to be a close friend. 70%, not one close friend. This one just blows me away. 37% confessed having been involved in inappropriate sexual behavior with someone in their present church. 37% of the pastors have been sexually involved with with one of their parishioners in the present context. 40% reported a serious conflict with a parishioner at least once a month. 70% say they have a lower self-image now than when they started. 90% said that they felt inadequately trained to cope with ministry demands.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Wow.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	We could take the rest of the program. How can the church be strong if its leaders are going through this kind of chaos?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, we're cannibalizing our pastors because we expect everything from them. We expect them to make the church grow because that's the measure of success in the world today, isn't it, growth?
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	That's what it says.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	We talk about growth in numbers. We should be talking about growth in spiritual depth and quality. Never confuse technique with truth.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Yeah.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Always, if you're preaching the Orthodox faith and then the church grows, you know it's a sign of God's blessing. If you're not, if you're growing because of technique, that's merely manmade.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Yeah.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And we should be, if you really want to have church growth, have it the way they had it in the New Testament. In the New Testament times, what happened? Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead. It said, "Fear came across the congregation." And then the church began to grow.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	After Paul's preaching, the fear of God came upon the church and it began to grow. Can you imagine a church growth expert coming in today and telling a pastor the secret to your church growth would be preach on fear of God? Not a one.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And yet that's clearly in the Reformation era. Coram Deo was the rallying cry of the reformers. In the presence of God, the imminence of God. If we really treated the church as the holy body, we would see it grow for the right reasons, not because we have the right marketing techniques.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Talk about the pastorate, Chuck. Why are so many pastors struggling in this way?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, I think because the elders and deacons and governing boards and the lay leaders want that church to grow, they don't view it as the place where that pastor is there to serve them and equip them for works of service. And yet that's exactly what Paul wrote in Ephesians.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	When a church lacks the proper sense of koinonia, a fellowship, a bonding together, the deepest, richest kind that we've known through the years when the church has been strong, a real sense of accountability and a real sense of discipline, then it always breaks down into power fights and factions.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	We refuse to respect the pastor's authority. Now, I think the pastor has to have authority over that church, because he is the one ordained by God to speak to that congregation on God's behalf. He needs to be accountable to the church and held to account, but clearly that pastor needs authority.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	In the church that I worship in now when I'm smart enough to be in Florida, the pastor, when he came, an excellent pastor, Dr. Hayes Wicker, when he came, he had a covenant of 25 points, and he wanted it agreed to between the members of the church and himself. And it's excellent because it spells out exactly what's expected. And that's what churches need to do.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	We are tearing pastors apart in this country. And that's one of the things I deal with in this book. And it's shocking.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	As it says here, 40% have had a serious conflict with a parishioner. That challenging of the pastor's authority is very typical. And yet I can hear someone saying back through these microphones, "You don't know my pastor. I mean, guy doesn't preach anything. It's just, it's watery soup. His leadership is bad"-
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, and there's a way to do it. And that's to get the church governing board, whatever it is, and to sit down with the pastor and talk about where he needs help and lovingly try to see that he becomes what he is supposed to be: the shepherd who oversees the flock which was purchased with the blood of Christ, the church.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I mean, when we take a low view of the church, it's scandalous because it's that for which Christ gave himself up for the church. But we should lovingly confront him and deal with him so that he does become the one who equips us for battle in the world. That's primarily what his task is.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Deal with this sexual information here. 37% have had an illicit affair. When you think about it, I mean, we're seeing it, these guys are fallen on all sides. The most visible seem to go down the most frequently. What's behind that?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, I think it was Henry Kissinger who said power is an aphrodisiac. And I think one of the problems with the power trip that a lot of people get on when they get into the pulpit, or when they get into politics or anything else, is that one of the areas in which they are most quickly vulnerable is the sexual area. And the temptation is the greatest and the strongest.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And so, the only defense against that is what the apostle Paul said. I suspect he might've had similar problems. He was proud, strong, and we don't know what the thorn in the flesh was that has to be taken away, but he did say that "I die daily." And that gives you a pretty good hint. He had to die to himself daily to his lusts, his desires, his temptations, and most of all to his pride.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And when you put yourself in the proper context, realizing that every breath you take is a breath that is given to you moment to moment by the living God that you serve only at his pleasure, that your life is without meaning without him, that you are merely his servant, then that kind of puts you back in perspective, gets you off that power and pride kick, and eliminate some of that sexual temptation.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	You talk in your book about the tendency of the church today to idolize its leaders, to put them on a pedestal-
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Pedestal complex.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Yeah, yeah.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, see, that's exactly right. And then you've got the guy up on the pedestal complex. And all of a sudden he begins to believe the things you're saying about him and begins to have an inflated view of himself. And the sexual temptation is one that almost inescapably follows from that.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	But one of the things I talk about in the book and feel very strongly about is the accountability that is necessary in the Christian life. I know you've done it, Jim, and I've done it. I've got certain members of my board and I tell them, "Doesn't matter what area of my life, it's open to you. You come in, you look at my books, you ask me questions." Wesley used to have a soul series of questions that he would ask other people in his circles. And the penetrating questions, Chuck Swindoll, I quote his in the book-
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	I saw that.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Excellent.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	And name the four or five questions he asked. Can you list them?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Have you had an improper relationship-
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Wait a minute. Explain it. He's asking this of his fellow staff members.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Yes, they sit around in a circle, and they have seven questions. And they ask one another these questions. They go down the list and it's all the obvious temptations, "Have you lied?" and sexual immorality. Have you done anything improper this week? They finally get to, the last one is "Have you just lied to me?"
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	But they hold one another to account in that way. And I think that is extremely important, because I don't trust myself. And I know how easily pride affected me once before in my life and could again at this moment or 20 minutes from now. And so I have a group that I hold myself totally accountable to. As a matter of fact, I will make no decision unless they unanimously agree with it. That's a major decision.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	A couple of years ago there was a decision I wanted to make that was important to me. I went to them and they unanimously said no. And I didn't do it. And I'm sure that that's a check on my own baser impulses. I mean, I don't always know when I'm in the will of God. So you need people that help you stay that way.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Accountability is the only answer.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	The church, meaning the universal body of all those whom God has regenerated, is on the front lines because it is the church that is the called out people of God who are to make the witness of the kingdom to come.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	But then I define this very carefully in the book. There is also the church particular, and that's the local confessing congregation. And the importance of that is that's where we come together with total doctrinal agreement, where we administer the sacraments, where we preach the word and where we're equipped to service.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Now, every church that is equipping its lay people to be ministers of the gospel in their community, to live as salt and light, is on the front lines, because we're not going to win the battle for the heart and mind of our culture by simply winning political battles. I think what's happened to us in recent years has demonstrated the utter futility of that. We're going to win it by one by one winning people over pleasingly to our point of view.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	We're never going to win the battle to stop the reckless, shocking murder of one and a half million unborn children every year so long as there are more votes among women who want to be pandered to for their so-called right to choose. And so, the live bodies who vote, to whom you can say, "I give you the right to choose," the right of choice is always going to win over the unborn children who can't vote. They're not going to win that.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And you're not going to win it by political strategies. You're going to win it by the churches on the front line persuading their people how they can with a convincing apologetic, stress the dignity of life at every level, not just abortion, but euthanasia as well, to their neighbors, and win the neighborhoods. The battle for the culture is going to be fought in the neighborhoods block to block. And that's where the church is on the front lines. That's where a church equipping its people is on the front lines-
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	The best example of the church on the front lines is the role of the church in the fall of communism. You talk about that a lot in your book. That's an exciting story.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I have one story I have to tell because it's just so powerful. It's the story of Timisoara, Romania, where Laszlo Tokes reformed church. He started to preach the gospel, and this was in 1988, and he soon had 5,000 members in his church. And the church was just vibrant and alive, and the secret police couldn't stand that kind of growth. And so they started to beat him and persecute him, tried to kill him. And eventually in the fall of 1989, when communism began to fall in Eastern Europe, the secret police came and they surrounded his church.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And Laszlo Tokes said it was a turning point of his life because he looked out the windows and saw the tanks and the secret police. But he also saw the people of his community, of every church, Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, Romanians, Hungarians surrounding that church. And they stood between him and the secret police to protect their pastor. He said it changed his life because all of his old prejudices faded away because he saw that all the people of God were there, the body.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Into that crowd one night came a young Baptist lad, 19 years old, his name was Daniel Gavra. Daniel Gavra walked up to his pastor, Peter Dugulescu, and had something under his coat. And Peter said, "Oh, don't bring a weapon in here." And young Daniel Gavra said, "I don't have a weapon, pastor." He opened his coat. He had a box of candles. They started lighting candles. They passed them out among the crowd. Some of you may remember, who are listening on the radio, seeing the picture in this Timisoara square, thousands of lights at night. And the communists could not stand it because that city was ablaze with the light of the gospel, with God's people standing there, surrounding this church.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	The next day, Ceausescu couldn't stand it. He ordered them to open fire. Daniel Gavra, that 19-year-old lad who brought the candles in, had his right leg blown off. Four days later, the pastor went to see him in the hospital. Daniel Gavra was lying there. The pastor said, "It must be tough to have lost your limb." And Gavra said, "Oh no, pastor. But it was I who lighted the first candle." Oh God, give us the strength and the courage in America to be willing to give our limbs to light the first candle.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	I've been reading-
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	That's the church.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	I've been reading about Dietrich Bonhoeffer in the Nazi era and how he just refused to buckle.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	He never did. And before they took him out and hung him at the Tegel prison, he got on his knees and prayed. And the last scene people saw Bonhoeffer alive was down on his knees, praying at the foot of the gallows while his captives were waiting to hang him.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And the story, you know, the Time magazine, and what to me is the ultimate expression of naivete in our culture, Time magazine named Mikhail Gorbachev the man of the decade. Now we see what an absolute rogue he was, and even the Russians are turning on him. He wasn't the man of the decade. Communism fell because the church remained alive behind the Iron Curtain.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I've been there. I've been in Czechoslovakia and Hungary. I've been to Russia. I've talked to the people who were in prison. They never wavered in their faith. They knew it was their duty to be the church and that they knew something that we don't know in this country. They knew that being precedes doing, that there's nothing you can do that does not flow out of the character of a holy community.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And if we really want to change this country, the place to start is in our churches where we become a holy community, where we are living the faith and from that we'll radiate out that light that we saw in the square in Timisoara, the light that brought down communism.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Boy, that moves me, Chuck.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I think it flows, Jim, out of the spiritual strength of the church, of the body of Christ, of the body of believers.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	In Poland, when the communist officials ordered them to take the crosses off the wall in the classrooms, the Polish school children took the crosses down and marched through the streets with them. In America, when we ordered the Ten Commandments taken down from the walls of our classrooms, everybody said, "Ho hum, take down the Ten Commandments." See, we haven't had to fight for the most fundamental of our beliefs. And so we've been lulled into a sense of false security and I-
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	We may get that chance though.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, at the rate we're going, I really believe ... By every indicator, I really believe this culture today in America has become post-Christian. And when I say post-Christian, what I mean by that is what Francis Schaeffer used to warn us of, that is that not that people aren't going to church, they are going to church. Not that people aren't being born again, they are being born again. But the fundamental presuppositions of values by which we live in our society are no longer Christian. They're not the Ten Commandments. They're not the golden rule. People don't quote Bible verses. They aren't the basic fundamental propositions of Christian truth. They are hostile. They are radically individualistic. They are selfish. They are anti-communitarian. They are politically correct. They are hostile to the values that we hold dear. And so this culture can no longer be considered Christian. We in the church have got to be the outpost of light in the midst of the darkening culture in which we live.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Your subtitle of the book, The Body, is Being Light in Darkness.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Yes.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	You see the culture today being dark?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I really do, Jim. As you and I were talking about at lunch today, you have the smell of sunset. You have the sense that we're just seeing a glimmer of light on the horizon and that we really are approaching a Dark Ages, maybe not unlike the Dark Ages in the early centuries in Europe. We need to remember it because we need to learn from history. It was the church that preserved learning. It was the church that preserved truth. It was the church that preserved civility in schools and the little monastic outposts. And eventually the barbarians fell because the church infiltrated from the monasteries and went out and infiltrated that culture. And the barbarian hordes retreated and Europe once again became Christian.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	In that lunch that we had together, you said that you felt the presence of the Holy Spirit and his involvement in the writing of this book more than any book you've written in a long time, I don't know, maybe ever.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I really did, Jim, in the sense that Loving God was a book that God has used in an extraordinary way in 45 countries in the world. Wherever I go, people, their lives were really impacted by that.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I wrote Loving God out of the deep conviction that religion seemed to be continually showing movement upwards and morality downwards. And so then the need in Loving God was to write something that was a call for heroic Christian obedience and faithfulness. And the book has been used wonderfully.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I couldn't write that book today, because the need is not for individual obedience. The need is for corporate obedience, for the people of God to come together and to unite and to be strong as the body of Christ, which is what this book is about. Not since Loving God have I felt such passion and conviction and anointing of the Holy Spirit in the process of writing a book.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	It's a very similar book, as you know from reading it. It's many stories with some teaching chapters in between. And it's a similar book, but it's a call to the church, as Loving God was a call to the individual.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	I would like for you to come back when you've got time, when you're passing through Colorado Springs or anywhere nearby. And I'd to talk a little more about the family in the context of the present political climate.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Oh, I would love to do that because-
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	I mean, that's an area that I'm really concerned about. I know you are too.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	As you will know, Jim, I have talked about that many times. I think you are absolutely on the front lines. We talked about the church in the front lines. If you break down that family unit, which was the first institution God ordained, civilization stops. It's done. It's finished. And I think we're in grave danger. I see it in the inner cities, in the prisons, of losing the family.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And of course, in the political debates, it's a shocking, scandalous failure to even define the traditional family. No one even defines it-
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Yeah.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And so, we've got to do it. And that's where you're doing it and that's where God bless you for it. I applaud you.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	Thanks for being our guest, Chuck.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Thank you.
</p>
<p>
James Dobson:	And the Lord bless you.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Well, this is Roger Marsh once again, and I hope you've enjoyed these two meaningful Family Talk broadcasts. If you'd like a copy of the complete interview, visit our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org. And once you get there, you'll see a button that says, "Order a CD," on it. All you have to do is hit that button and you can order a CD.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	You'll also find links to the various organizations that Chuck Colson started. You'll find all that and more when you go to drjamesdobson.org and then click onto the Broadcast tab.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	As we conclude today's broadcast, please know that Family Talk is a completely listener-supported ministry. Your generosity allows us to continue to fight for righteousness all throughout this culture. And you can learn how to partner with us by visiting our online resource center at drjamesdobson.org. That's drjamesdobson.org. Or by giving a gift over the phone, when you call (877) 732-6825. That's (877) 732-6825. Thanks so much for your assistance, and thanks also for tuning in today. Be sure to join us again tomorrow for another exciting edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
</p>
<p>
Announcer:	This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
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Announcer:	Today on Family Talk.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Welcome everyone to this Wednesday edition of Family Talk, a production of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, thanking you for listening today to the program where we reach back into our audio archives to bring you a classic Dobson interview.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Now our guest for this program was one of Dr. Dobson's closest friends, the late Mr. Chuck Colson. Now you may remember his name from the infamous Watergate scandal under President Richard Nixon. Well, in just a moment Chuck will talk about that saga of his life, and also how God radically transformed him.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Now I don't want to take anything away from this conversation, so let's get started.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Here now is Dr. James Dobson to further introduce his guest on this edition of Family Talk.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	I don't know of anyone that I enjoy talking to more than this man, and that's why the doors are just always open here in the studio anytime Chuck Colson can come visit us.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	He's an attorney, he's the former Special Counsel to President Richard Nixon at the time of the Watergate scandal. He spent seven months in prison for his involvement with that. And from that experience, he had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ that changed his life forever.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	He's been chairman of the board of Prison Fellowship Ministries since 1984, and has been my friend for about that long.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Thank you, Jim, and I really appreciate that warm welcome. I always feel at home here. Kindred spirits. Our time goes by too fast is my only problem with it.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Did I ever tell you how much appreciate your integrity and your continued walk with the Lord in a world where others seemed to be falling on the right and left. I just really do love and appreciate you, Chuck.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, I thank you, Jim, and those feelings are mutual, as you well know.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	I mentioned the Watergate scandal, I suppose that'll follow you the rest of your life in what took place there. You know, I remember that right after you got out of prison, you announced that you had had this personal encounter with Jesus Christ in there, there was a lot of cynicism about that in the press.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Sure was.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Nobody believed it, at least the press claimed not to believe it. And they acted like you were doing that for an effect, that you were really playing games.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, it's been 20 years.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Does anybody ever come back to you now and say, "By George, you were telling the truth about that!"
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	No, except once in a while I'll run into someone who says, "You really were serious about this, weren't you?" I mean, 20 years later. Occasionally even run into skeptics today.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	You have to realize that if a person hasn't had an experience with Christ, then they have to believe that I'm a phony. Because if I am for real it convicts them deeply. But I still run into some of that, not so much now.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	What did that do to you? After going through all of that turmoil of the Watergate era, and then to have people not believe the most important decision you'd made in your life?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, I understood fully why they couldn't believe it. If the tables had been turned and I had watched some guy, White House rascal come out and go to prison and then talk about being born again, I'd have been equally cynical and skeptical. And I didn't really mind it, because that skepticism and cynicism drew many people to Christ. They were absolutely convicted by me.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I'll never forget one guy I met at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, he was walking across the lobby after the breakfast, and I saw him coming at me, and all of a sudden he got these beady eyes, and he came up to me and said he was a State Senator for Maryland. He hated me and he started calling me every name in the book.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	About four years later I was in exactly the same place, after the National Prayer Breakfast, walking across the lobby, here came the same fellow and I thought, "Oh, no, here he comes again." And this time he came up and as he got close to me his eyes started to water and he reached out and he grabbed me and he hugged me. And he said, "I hated you because you convicted me." He said, "I've, because of you, come to Jesus Christ." He said, "My life has been transformed."
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	He stood there in that lobby of the hotel crying on my shoulder. Now, I know that happened so many thousands of times that you can live with that cynicism because you know God's using it for his purposes.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	The first time you were here, you told us how you came to Christ. That's been a number of years ago, remind us. How did that occur? Was it in prison, or?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	No, it was actually before I went to prison.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Before you went to prison.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	It was about a year before I went to prison. And I had gone back to be once the General Counsel of the Raytheon Company when I left the White House. I was feeling a real period of deadness in my life. Something was missing, but I didn't know what it was.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And met a man who was the chairman of the board, then the President of Raytheon, Tom Phillips, who in 15 minutes in the conversation I knew that he had changed. I hadn't seen him in four years. I said, "Tom, what's happened to you?" And he said, "I have accepted Jesus Christ and committed my life to him."
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Now, I didn't grow up in the Midwest and in the Bible Belt like you did, Jim, I grew up the vast Unitarian wasteland of the northeast. I had never heard anybody talk that way. Just little old ladies in tennis shoes standing on street corners handing out tracks. I mean, here's a man, business man, talking about Jesus Christ.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	But I watched him over those next months and there was something very different about him. And I went back to his home one night, August, 1973, and he witnessed to me. He wanted to pray with me, but I had never prayed except in church. I left his house that night, I took a little book he'd given me called, Mere Christianity, from which he had read a chapter that really touched my life.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And got in the car that night, and I have to tell you that the guy that was the toughest of the Nixon tough guys, and the White House hatchet man, and the ex-Marine Corp Captain, I could not drive the automobile out of the driveway, I was crying too hard, calling out to God. I sat in that driveway a long time that night, alone with the Lord for the first time in my life. I knew the reality of Christ.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And the next day, I woke up thinking I'd be ashamed because I would never cry, I was macho. And I felt a wonderful relief, and that's been almost 20 years ago. And I can only say to skeptics, I'm more convinced of the reality of Jesus Christ today than I am of my own reality.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	You had a reputation of being about the toughest guy in the White House, Chuck. How did a guy who, you know, took on all comers and was known for his ability to let you have it if you crossed him, how did such a man have a soft spot inside like for Jesus Christ?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I think every human being does. See, I think the truth is in us. I don't believe there's any such thing as an atheist. I believe there are no atheists in the world. If anybody's listening to this broadcast who believes they're an atheist, they are simply deluding themselves.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	The truth of God is in every one of us. The image of God is impressed into us, as Romans 1 says. And we rebel and we run away, we try to fill it with other things. And one of the things I tried to fill it with was pride, masculinity, tough. I wanted to be the guy that could get anything done.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And then suddenly I was pierced to the heart because I saw a man who was changed. And I saw love, which I had not known. And I knew deep in my own soul that I needed that. That's why I went back and spent an evening with him.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And the moment I discovered what it was, all those callouses I had built up over the years protecting myself, protecting my pride, they were gone, and then the inner person comes out.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And I've lived the most joyous 20 years. I mean, if I were to leave now and go home with the Lord, I would be grateful for every single day I had and wouldn't trade the worst day of the last 20 years for the best of the 40 years that preceded that.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	You had stomach cancer a few years ago.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Yes.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	And you had an opportunity, as I did, to lie in a hospital and look at the ceiling and ask, you know, what is it all about and what comes after this life? Did you draw any conclusions from that, Chuck?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Yeah.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Did it have an impact on you?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I had a very poignant moment in the hospital when the stomach tube that was draining my stomach, I had been operated on, clogged and serious problems. Very serious problems. Kind of code blue stuff. They called in my family and my temperature went to 105. And I really thought I was dying. And I thought in one sense, sadness, I'll be leaving my family. But I was certain that if I walked across that line at that moment I would meet Jesus. Absolutely certain.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And I felt a total peace that I can't describe. And only one thought went through my mind. I thought, how in the world could anybody go through life and get to this point, as we all will, and not know Jesus Christ? How empty life would be.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And as it turned out, I got through that night and got through 30 days in the hospital and made it. Had to go back a couple of other times, but I've never been closer to that moment when I knew I would see Jesus face to face.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	It really does put a different perspective on it.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Yes, it does. Puts a different perspective on every day you live thereafter.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	You know, I hadn't planned for this conversation to go in this direction, but I feel it's right. This is what makes it all meaningful. This is where those values come from.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	The foundation of it is Jesus Christ, who died on the cross to take my sins upon himself. And if I didn't really believe, Jim, that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins, if I didn't believe that the stuff I know, it has been in my heart over the years. Not the things you read about in Watergate, but the hatred and the envy and the pride and the bitterness and covetousness. If I didn't know for certain that Jesus died for those sins on the cross, I could not live with myself today.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And anybody who's listening who does not know for certain that Christ died for them on the cross and that their sins can be forgiven, stop whatever you're doing right now.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	How can they know it?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Stop and turn to the Lord in prayer and ask him, "Just reveal yourself to me. Are you real? Forgive me of my sins, come into my life, make me the person you want me to be."
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I cried out in a driveway, I didn't know the words, I just cried out and said, "Jesus, take me. I want to know you. I want to know you, God. I want you in my life." And my life was changed because the Holy Spirit will touch you at that moment. He wants you just the way you are right now.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And as a matter of fact, a lot of people I know, intellectuals that I argue with frequently, will say, "Well, I'm trying to get my act together, and I'll get in shape to meet God sometime." Well, you can never get in shape, because you can't do it. Because we're fallen creatures. We live in sin. It's not a nice word in today's environment, but it's true. We are sinners.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And the only way that can be changed is the regenerating power of Jesus Christ, of God transforming our lives. We can't do it ourselves. I'd have been, probably have cirrhosis of the liver by now, be angry with the whole world, and I don't think I could live with myself.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I mean, I wouldn't trade places for anything in the world with the people who came out, or are back in politics, or back practicing law. I mean, the joy that I have is inexpressible.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Now wait a minute, Chuck, is that Christian propaganda?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	No, it is not Christian propaganda.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	I mean, no wait, here you were ten feet away from the President of the United States, you were right down the hall from the Oval Office, I know right where you were. You could pick up the phone and you could call for a Marine helicopter to come pick you up, take you any place.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Air Force jets waiting at the Andrews Air Force base, limousines.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	You're in on all the important issues of state. And you had as much money as you needed.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Yeah.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	At least you did prior to going into government. At one point, I think you had a yacht, did you not?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Oh sure. A big yacht in Chesapeake Bay.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	And all that stuff.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	All the toys.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	When you're standing now in a prison in Argentina or someplace and the smell of, you know, the excrement and so on is throughout the prison, and you're dealing with broken down and outers, who can offer nothing in return but affection and love. Does that really compete with where you came from?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	There's no competition.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I look back on those years in the White House, and they are very important to me, and the years of the power, and it was part of learning what life all about. And there were some things that were done in government that were significant. Although, as I look at them today, almost none of them have survived these 20 years. We used to think we were changing the course of history. We really weren't, I mean, you're playing power battles.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And the lack of spirit of camaraderie in the White House, I mean, it was awful. You'd walk with your back to the wall all the time, that was the advice I was given when I went to the White House, and good advice. Kissinger always plotting to get even with Haldeman or Ehrlichman, who gets to see the President. I mean, it really is a totally different world.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	You told me privately a number of years ago that if you could have actually presented all the evidence that you had at your disposal, you would never have been convicted, you would not have gone to prison. And in order to keep a state secret, you accepted that seven months. It was actually a two year sentence, wasn't it?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I got a three year sentence, of which I ended up serving seven months.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Tell the story of what you could not tell at that time.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, the problem was that I didn't go to prison for Watergate, I went to prison for the Ellsberg ...
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Ellsberg break-in.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	... break-in, at the psychiatrist's office. And the reason that they broke in was they were very concerned about the papers that he had stolen from the government.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Pentagon.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Pentagon papers and others, national security study memorandum. And was disseminating to the media. And one of them turned up at the Russia Delegation in the United Nations, several of them turned up on the desks of U.S. Senators. Many of them made their way to the newspapers. But we didn't know all the papers he had.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Now, to break-in to a psychiatrist's office was a stupid, dumb thing. I did not know about it in advance, but I was part of a conspiracy to defame to Ellsberg, and that's what I pleaded guilty to.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	If, however, the court had allowed, or if we had been willing to testify, what was in the Pentagon papers sequestered during the trials and protected, never released, but that we were fearful would be released, I think it would have been exculpatory, possibly even exonerating of what we did to attempt to expose Ellsberg.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Because in the Pentagon papers were the names of CIA agents operating abroad at that moment. So lives would have been in an instant jeopardy. We had names of people who were CIA cover agents operating in the Soviet Union. They were in those papers that Ellsberg had. We had reason to be alarmed for lives.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Not only that, but in there was intelligence of conversations taking place, recorded conversations taking place among Soviet officials from their limousines while they were driving around in the Kremlin. We had such sophisticated listening devices in our satellites that we could actually monitor and listen to their phone conversations.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	But those transcripts, if they had been released, would have let the Russians know, the Soviets know, that we were actually listening to their radio communications in their limousines in Moscow, and would have been devastating to our national security effort.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	So we all discussed it at the time and agreed that regardless of the consequences to our case, we would never disclose that. We went before the judge and told him these things, and he said all of those things have to be protected and can't be used. But of course, if they had been used would have largely helped us, I think, certainly with a jury, would have helped us greatly.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	And yet as you just said, it was God's will that you went to prison. He used that in your life.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I look back on it now and realize that had I fought the case I would have won, and because the one other fellow who was charged with the exact same thing I did, was charged with, was ultimately exonerated on appeal. I only had two counts against me in the Watergate, most people had 20 and more. And we never should have been tried together. So on technical grounds I would have been thrown out.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	But no, God had a plan for my life. And today, we have 46,000 volunteers. We have, thanks to your help with Angel Tree, 250,000 kids beings visited at Christmas with gifts, being given the Gospel. We have lives being transformed all around the world in the 80 countries we're working in. My goodness, if it would take seven months in prison to bring that about, I'd go do it again.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Talk about your radio program.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I'm not anxious to do it again.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	That's actually come out of it too.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, it has. And I have you to thank for that, Jim, because over the years you were prodding me saying, "Stop traveling so much, why don't you go on the radio?" And so we started, 1991, started a broadcast, four minutes a day, called Breakpoint. And it's been absolutely marvelous because in the first year, we had over 30,000 calls of people calling asking for transcripts.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	The thrust of it is to try to equip the believer to think Christianly about issues, to look at what is happening in our society, and to give them the ammunition. I mean, I think the job of all of us, in prayer church ministries and in the church, the primary task is to equip the believer to live out his faith. Something I talk about in my new book, and feel passionately about.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And this is what I do on the radio. I give a four minute commentary on current events, talking about issues from a Christian perspective to equip people. The thing that's been fun for me as I travel around the country now, people come up to me and they used to say, "I read your book, Born Again, I read this, I read that." Now, fully 50% of them come up and say, "I listen to your radio program regularly. It helps me."
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Isn't that exciting?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Oh, it's wonderful. I get the transcripts and I pass them out in our Sunday school class, and that's what I love to see is the multiplying effect that radio has. I never understood it until you coaxed me into it.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Funny that you should mention your new book.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	That's right.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	You were here, you were invited here to talk about that today. It's called, The Body: Being Light In Darkness, by Charles Colson with Ellen Santilla Vaughn, did I pronounce her name exactly?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Yes, you did, just right.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	And this book is just recently released. About the church, you're really commenting on the status of the church, the larger body of Christian believers around the world.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, the body of believers worldwide, and also our local congregations. This book, I have to tell you, Jim, this book represents a real passion of mine. I've worked on this for three years, and I don't think any book since Loving God have I felt the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as I wrote it, nor have I felt deeper convictions about it.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	There's a lot in here that'll be controversial to people, but I think we have had a scandalously casual view of the church. We have been sucked into the consumer mentality by and large, and this applies across the board, evangelicals as well as mainline churches.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	We drop into the church on Sunday morning where we feel like going, like you might choose a Wendy's one day and a McDonald's the next, to see where we're going to get a message that makes us feel good. And we measure church by its growth.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Now what this has done is to blunt the church's effectiveness in our culture to the point that George Gallup discovered, and this goes to the very reason why we're in trouble in American culture today. George Gallup discovered that there's no difference in the behavior of people who are churched from people who are unchurched. If the church is just a place you go like you might choose a Wendy's or a McDonald's, then of course it isn't going to affect your behavior.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	The church is not a building, it isn't a place you go for therapy, it isn't measured by its growth, the church is the place of the holy community, where the people come together, people of God. Where somebody sees, where the world can see a look at the kingdom to come, of the invisible kingdom of God made visible. It's the people of God living their faith out.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	And we've got to regain that view of what the body is in the world, and what the body is when we come together in our local confessing congregations. And that's what this book attempts to do.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	So, people see the church as a filling station?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Yep.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	It's time to come in, and especially be touched emotionally if you can, and kind of get charged up and go back out to live like you were going to live anyway. What a sad commentary. Does that really assess where we are today?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, unfortunately to a very large extent it does. And what happens, of course, when the marketing model takes over is that the elders and deacons put pressure on the pastors. I feel sorriest for the pastors in this.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	The elders and deacons put pressure on, they say, "We want to grow." Well, if you want to grow, you've got to have enticing messages and a warm feeling to bring people in. And people do choose churches today on the basis of fellowship, music programs, convenience, location, preaching, in just about that order according to most of the surveys that I've looked at. What they ought to be choosing it on is where am I going to get solid meat? And where am I going to be equipped for service in the world? Because it's the function.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	You know, when I was in the Marines we went through basic training, and it was the Korean War, and people were coming back in pine boxes. And so, when I went to basic training, you worked 16 hours a days. You went over the obstacle course morning, noon, and night. You went out on 20 mile marches, you took your rifle apart blindfolded and put it back together blindfolded. You learn the Marine manual by heart. You were studying because you were going into combat.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	We should look at our churches exactly the way you look at Marine Corp training for combat, because that's what it is! It's the church, the body of believers, who meet together for worship and study, for the proclamation of the word, for the administration of the sacraments, and for the equipping of the believers in the world. That is how we are preparing people today for the spiritual combat in which we live, and we should take it every bit as seriously as soldiers or Marines prepare to go to war.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	We're going to have to spend another day on this, Chuck, obviously. But we have time for one more question and answer. Let's make it this, give me an overview of the health of the church and the Christian community in the body today. Just if you look at all the different dimensions, all the things that are going on in the small towns and the big cities, how do you assess that?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Well, I would say that there are many good churches where the word is being faithfully proclaimed and taught, and people are being discipled. But on the whole, the body has really not done its job in our culture.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Because in this period of great evangelical upsurge in North America, look what's happened to belief in the Bible. Gallup took a poll in 1963 and found that 65% of the people believed the Bible true. Here we are, 30 years later, great evangelical movement, what's that same poll show today? 32% believe in the Bible.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	1976, it was the most fashionable thing in the world in this country to be born again, it was all over the cover of news magazines, the year of the evangelical. In 1992, Gallup asked what organizations or what movements or what people do you fear the most? Top of the list, fundamentalists, 50%. Secular humanists were feared only by 38% of the American people.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	So the terrible problem we have is that while we have been experiencing a movement of spirituality that has impacted our churches, and while more people are going to church and many more people profess to be born again, we've lost the culture. Now there are a lot of reasons for that, which I deal with in the book, and they are serious reasons and we've got to take a hard look at it.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	But it seems to me that the great challenge is to begin to root people back into the church, to strengthen the church, the local communions where people go to be trained and equipped, and the body at large.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	If you look around the world, you will see that in America and in much of the western society, we are losing ground. We have certainly lost Europe. Europe is a post Christian culture.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	It's gone.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	America is-
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	You said in here we're a post Christian culture.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	I believe America today is a post Christian culture. But if you go, for example, to Korea, where I was just a few months ago, and you ask any pastor about the church, they don't answer, "I'm building a new education wing," or, "I've gotten a new organ," or, "We've had 32 baptisms last month." They talk about winning the world for Christ. And there you see it exploding. They have a whole vision for the world in Korea. And I think the Gospel has moved from Europe to the United States, I think we have trivialized our worship, and I think it's moving, at this point, towards the far east.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	We must talk more about this, Chuck.
</p>
<p>
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</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	And let's do that next time. The title of the book is, The Body: Being Light In Darkness, by Church Colson, with Ellen Santilla Vaughn. And it's published by Word Publishers.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	Again, Chuck, I appreciate you. And we'll get right into the meat of it next time. But I just appreciate the things you said about how you came to know the Lord, because, again, there are husbands and wives, there are single people out there, they are even some children who have been in and around the church, but have never really had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ. And if that has not occurred, all the rest of it is just game playing, isn't it?
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	This is all meaningless if you don't go to square one, to the root, to the basic. And that is the personal relationship with the living God, the one who rose from the dead and lives today at the right hand of the Father. And if you don't know him, then all the rest of this is nothing but talk.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	See you tomorrow.
</p>
<p>
Chuck Colson:	Thank you, Jim.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	I'm Roger Marsh and you've been listening to part one of Dr. Dobson's interview with the late Chuck Colson here on Family Talk.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Now this is a very special broadcast for yours truly because of the fact that I spent many years working for Chuck's radio ministry, Prison Fellowship and Breakpoint. And also today, October 16th, would have been Chuck's 88th birthday.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Visit our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org to see how Chuck Colson's legacy of work still continues to help people to this day. We have links for this book, The Body, also the Colson Center, and the Prison Fellowship Ministry as I mentioned. You'll find all that and much more when you click on the broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org.
</p>
<p>
Roger Marsh:	Be sure to tune in again tomorrow for the conclusion of this insightful discussion that you've been listening to today. Dr. Dobson and Chuck Colson will talk about the church's responsibility to be a beacon of light in this decaying culture. That's next time right here on Family Talk.
</p>
<p>
Announcer:	This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
</p>
<p>
Dr. Dobson:	This is James Dobson again. As we close today's program, I just want to thank so many of you out there who make this broadcast possible with your contributions. And I want to tell you how much your generosity is appreciated.
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ASSETS:<pre></pre>
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