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<br />
Roger Marsh: In Psalm 1:39, David praises God because he was fearfully and wonderfully made. We can rejoice in that same truth as well. Each and every person is molded and formed by the very hands of Creator God and we must celebrate life and defend it, especially in the mother's womb. You're listening to Family Talk, a division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh with your host, Dr. James Dobson. In a moment you'll hear the conclusion of Dr. Dobson's riveting interview with Dr. William Lile.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Dr. Lile is a pro-life obstetrician and gynecologist with a private practice near Pensacola, Florida. On yesterday's program, Dr. Lile shared his passion for kingdom service and why life begins at conception. Today He'll be sharing stories of lives saved through a revolutionary new procedure that actually can reverse an abortion. There's a lot to get to. Here now is Dr. James Dobson to reintroduce today's guest here on Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Dr. Lile you were here with us yesterday and that was a deeply moving program. I'm still touched by what you had to say about the unborn child and your love for that youngster that's developing there. You don't refer to it as an unborn child but as a pre-born child because that's a human being that's soon to be delivered in an 80-inch strip down the birth canal does not change anything but the address.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Correct.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: For us to kill 60 million of those babies, I don't know how God can withhold his judgment on us. That is so wicked and so evil. I want our listeners to hear today a fairly recent experience that you had that is also deeply moving. This is an example of what we've been talking about, what we were yesterday. It's really about reversal of abortion.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Correct. Abortions can be performed to ways surgically and medically or chemically. Right now, the medical abortions were, a medicine is given to the mom up to 70 days, 10 weeks after the first day of the last menstrual period. The estimates are that up to 30% of all abortions are now being performed with medicine. In fact, there's an organization that is trying to have abortion pills be available online and through the mail services where you can have an abortion just mail order.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That's almost malpractice, isn't it?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Yes. In fact, there are state laws against that but it is referred to as Self Induced Abortion, SIA and there are many advocates around the country that are trying to make this much more available. It was started by an organization called Women on Web. They also are involved in providing abortions and other countries in especially South America that would not allow abortions but medical abortions are becoming much more common but the thing is a medical abortion can often be reversed. Just like we look at the narcotic problem that is affecting the United States in 2017, 72,000 people lost their lives due to an overdose of a narcotic.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: We have a medication called Narcan where if somebody comes to our labor and delivery or present to our emergency room, the police officers, the EMTs, the paramedics, even in airports, Narcan is available if somebody has a narcotic overdose. It is like a switch. It immediately will take a patient that is unconscious, might not even be breathing. We give them the shot and immediately they can wake up, they start breathing and answering your questions.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: We have the technology to reverse narcotics. Well, with 30% of all the abortions now also being performed with the medication, a lot of physicians wonder, well, if somebody is given that medication and it has a change of heart and realize I made a wrong decision, just like somebody who took a narcotic-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: How common is that? That a woman will change their mind after she's done this?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: We don't know. It's probably a lot more common than we think because somebody might not know that once they change their mind that there are physicians throughout the country who can actually say, "Okay, you change your mind. Do you realize that we can reverse what was already started?" There are two primary medications that are used to induce an abortion. One is called RU 486? It is an anti-progesterone medication. Progesterone is the hormone that the body releases when it's pregnant that sends a signal to the whole body, "We're pregnant." Let's start preparing for the change. Pro-gesterone, pro-gestation.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: The medication RU 486 blocks progesterone. The body says, "Hey, we have progesterone we're pregnant. Let's keep the pregnancy going." Then RU 486 is given blocks that signal in the body goes, "Well, I thought we were pregnant," and then three days later they'd take a medication called Cytotec, which causes uterine contractions and that expels the baby from the inside.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Well, when it comes to progesterone, if an anti-progesterone medication is given, there was a gentleman who's a family practice doctor named George Delgado, who years ago thought, "Well, if it's an anti-progesterone, what if I can convince the body that is pregnant, that it's still pregnant," and we can do that by giving supplemental progesterone. We use progesterone in our practice every week. Patients who have a history of preterm labor are given injections of a medication called Makena. A progesterone that keeps the pregnancy going.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Patients who've had recurrent miscarriage are given progesterone to keep the pregnancy going. The thought was, "Well, can we reverse this started and initiated abortion?" Dr. Delgado recently published an article in a peer reviewed journal over 100 successful abortion reversals. A lot of pregnancy centers don't know that we can reverse the abortion process even after it's already been started. A lot of doctors, a lot of emergency rooms don't know.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Is there an opposition to it?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Oh, of course. This is an all or none phenomenon when it comes to reversing RU 486. Look at the name. Anybody who has worked in the restaurant industry realizes that when the chef says, "86 the meatloaf," what does that mean? It means we're at a meatloaf, kill the meatloaf special. So when you look at the name of this drug, RU 486-ing? Are you 486-ing this life with-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Do you think this was intentional?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: No, it just, it was not intentional. That just happened to be the numbers that were used to identify this particular compound that they will work with.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I thought that when it was just coming into legal practice, I fought it like crazy and we lost.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: We have now had cases. I've had three successful reversals just in the past year. One was a successful reversal of RU 486 and we had people all over the country. In fact here at Family Talk, we had people praying for this young girl and for this baby. Week later we had a heartbeat. Two weeks later we had a heartbeat. Third Week she didn't show up. We called and she had received such pressure from family and from the boyfriend that she went and had a surgical abortion. It was a punch to the gut. Here we really thought that we had been successful and we celebrated that but it was not our fault. We had a duty to be faithful.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: We shared the truth, we were successful but then she made a decision. What we also realized was that we can't get discouraged when somebody makes the wrong decision. Just like if you share the gospel with somebody, you don't share the gospel with somebody and they say, "No, that's just not for me," and then say to yourself, "Well, I'm never doing that again."<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: No, we have a duty to share the gospel. We don't save, that's up to the Holy Spirit but we have a duty to share the truth. We also have had successful reversals that have continued on. We recently had a mom who was pregnant who had been given RU 486 and had taken the medication, Cytotec to cause the contractions and she presented to the emergency room in our hospital. I went down, we did an ultrasound and she didn't just have a baby on the inside, she had twins on the inside. Twins that both still had a heartbeat even though she was bleeding.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: We talked to her and we said, "You know, we'd like to help you." She said, "I didn't realize what was going on. I didn't realize the life that was inside, especially that it was twins," and we said, "Well, we have medications and we have protocols that we can help support the pregnancy and reverse the medication that you've already taken."<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Well, we gave her the progesterone and we were successful. Weeks later, we were successful and she still has the heartbeats on these babies but then we got a call from what's called the IRB and IRB is the institutional Review Board. They are the group of physicians and ethicists that overlook all the decisions made in the hospital as far as research projects and interventions that are performed. They wanted me to come and present before the IRB and I actually I couldn't-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You called on the carpet for-<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: I was calling the carpet and I, at first I didn't know what I was being called to the IRB for because this case wasn't even in my thought process. I'm like, "I can't even think of anything." I called him back and they said, "Well, we wanted to go over how, we have a concern that you're practicing experimental medicine in the emergency room." I'm like, "When?" They said, "Well, that case of the lady who was pregnant and had taken the abortion pill and you reversed it". I said, "Oh my goodness! Why?"<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: I knew all the science and the facts and even had the written consent form, so I presented before the IRB what I had done, how we had informed the mother of what we were doing and how that was the desire of the mother. After reviewing it, the IRB said that they could determine that was a reasonable course of action.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Was that still controversial within your medical community?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Our community and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists of course does not want abortion reversal. ACOG, is the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. It's my governing body which discusses what is considered standard of care. They are establishing a fifth fellowship. Our fellowship is training in addition to what you learn in medical school and the four years of residency.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: After 12 years, four years of college, four years of medical school, four years of residency, you can do additional training on maybe cancer or high-risk obstetrics but they're offering a fifth fellowship now, which would be in family planning with the real emphasis being on providing abortion services for second and third trimester pregnancies. You spend all of your career learning how to save the lives of the sickest moms in the sickest babies and then you look and you can do additional training on how to take those lives.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Dr. Lile, the IRB could, if they chose, remove your medical license for doing something that they consider to be experimental. In fact, that was a possibility. You put your profession at risk for doing this. Was there a discussion about that possibility?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: That's always a possibility; an IRB, Institutional Review Board, is there to protect the interest of the patients and of the hospital. When a physician would be found to be risking the lives of patients or would be putting at risk, the hospital itself, a far as from the liability standpoint, if they deemed that I had behaved outside of the scope of medicine, that would be reasonable and acceptable, I could've lost my privileges at the hospital.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: But I think when I presented the data, presented the patient, presented the story, presented the patient's desires and the outcome. There was no denying that it was the right thing to do, it was a safe thing to do. It met the desires of the patient and her choice was to protect the life of their baby. And if we're talking about choice and so many people do, her choice was to save the life of the baby and that's what we honored.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: The choice has come to mean abortion.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Correct. We need to emphasize the protecting of the life. So, I saw this as a life that was threatened from abortion, and mom's choice was to protect that life and she regretted the decision that she had made. So, whether it was putting my privileges at the hospital at risk, well, it's still the right thing to do. A lot of people do the right thing for Kingdom Service knowing that it might put their own job in jeopardy. There are a lot of people who will stand up in their workplace and say, "This is the right thing to do. I will not do X. I will not do Y."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You're minimizing that, but this was a very courageous thing for you to do, wasn't it?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: It was the right thing to do and I would do it again.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: The twins, both survived.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: When we saw her on follow-up, we had successfully reversed the abortion. We still had heart tones and she's now following with a different physician because she lives outside of our town, out of state.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: So, the babies have not yet been delivered?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Correct. There's another medication which can be used to cause a medical abortion, and it's called methotrexate. Methotrexate is a chemotherapy. Chemotherapy works by attacking rapidly dividing cells. Methotrexate can be used to reverse GYN cancer such as choriocarcinoma. It's also used for some types of arthritis, but methotrexate attacks rapidly dividing cells; and a new pregnancy and new baby is an amazing collection of rapidly dividing cells. Within 28 days you have a heartbeat.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Methotrexate will attack that pregnancy. Well, we had a patient who you know was actually a nursing student and she found out she was pregnant. She went to a local abortion clinic, and she went there not seeking an abortion, but that's where she was used to going for her GYN care. She was used to going there for care, so she knew their address, she knew their phone number. She was there for about an hour and she was actually convinced that this was not a good time for her in her life, even though she was planning on getting married, engaged and had a career.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: They convinced her that having a baby now is not good. So, she signed a consent. She swiped her credit card and she was given the medication methotrexate and walked out thinking, "What did I just do?" She went out with her partner. They sat in the car and they're like, "What just happened?" She went home and just was sullen and was somber and she started doing some research, and she found that website abortionpillreversal.com, that was set up by Dr. Delgado.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: It was a Sunday morning. She called that 800 number. She spoke with a volunteer nurse in California. Told her what was going on. She did not want to lose her baby. That nurse then looks on the internet and looked for a pro-life doc that's nearby her. Well, I happened to be about an hour away from her. It was Sunday morning, we're getting ready to go to church and we're actually at church and we're getting ready to start our church service, and I was getting ready to sing in church, and I get the call.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: They said, "Can you call this lady? Get some information. She doesn't want to lose her baby." I said, "Absolutely." So, I call her, talk to her, explain the options. At this point there'd only been three abortion reversals with methotrexate that had ever been performed in the United States and as far as we know in the world. We got the information from her and then I need to find the medication that's the reversal medication.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: It's a medication called Leucovorin to reverse the effects of methotrexate. My pastor's getting ready to go to church and he says, "Bill, come on. We're getting ready to start." And I said, "I can't." He goes, "What's going on?" I said, "I'm trying to reverse an abortion," and he says, "Go, go, go." He says, "Good luck. We'll be praying for you." Well, when somebody says, "We'll be praying for you," you kind of think, "Well, what does that really mean?"<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: While I'm calling around to different pharmacies looking for this medication in Mobile, Alabama, he stops the church service, has everybody stop. He tells the story, and the whole church service prayed for this young girl, and for what we're going to try to do. So, I found a pharmacy and I call this pharmacist and I said, "Hey, do you carry the medication Leucovorin?" She goes, "Yeah, I do. What dose do you want?" I said, "It can be there 15 or 25 milligrams," and I gave her the dosage and the prescription that I wanted the patient to use and the pharmacists stops and she pauses and she said, "Dr. Lile". She says, "Are you trying to reverse an abortion?" I paused and I said, "Yeah, yeah I am." And she said, "Dr. Lile" She goes, "I'm with the on this. I will take care of this young lady personally."<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: So that I called the patient back and I say, "Hey, you've got to go to this pharmacy, ask for this young lady, and they had the medication in stock." So, she goes to the pharmacy and she says her name, and they take care of business. When I talked to the patient later that day, I said, "Hey, did you get to go to the pharmacy?" And she said, Dr. Lile, that is an interesting pharmacy." I said, "What do you mean?" She goes, "I got there. I told her my name." She said the pharmacist came from around behind the counter. She gave me a big hug and she said she'd be praying for me. I went to go pay for the reversal medication and the pharmacist put her hand up and say, "Oh sweetie, I got this." The pharmacist from her own pocket paid for the reversal medication.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: I'd never met the patient before. So, a week later the patient came into the office, and we did an ultrasound. Methotrexate at that gestational age has about a 90% chance of inducing a successful abortion, 98%. We did an ultrasound, and we had a heartbeat. We had her back a week later, we had a heartbeat. While we're concerned because methotrexate can cause damage to a developing baby. We had our maternal fetal medicine doctors do ultrasounds and then just a few months ago, we delivered the baby. Baby's perfect.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Healthy baby.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Healthy baby, but the real key is there are a lot of things involved, there was a lot of prayer that was involved in this. But you know, when we all look at how we do Kingdom Service, we think, "Well, I'm just doing this in my church. I'm just teaching Sunday school. I'm just working in the nursery. I'm blessed and I'm working here at Family Talk." Look at how many people were involved in the saving of the life of this one baby. There was a gentleman who set up a website called abortionpillreversal.com. He didn't know what was going on. There was a volunteer nurse who was manning the 800 number, who happens to take the call on a Sunday morning. She then calls a gynecologist over in Pensacola, Florida. He then calls a pharmacist over in Mobile, Alabama.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: If any one of those links in that chain had not been there, we would not have been successful. I have never met the pharmacist. I've never met the nurse over in California, but everybody was involved in Kingdom Service. They all had their role to play. So as we're spending our 70, 80, 90 years here on this planet, we've got to really look at how are we performing Kingdom Service, what am I doing? Am I possibly going to be one of those links to save a life? I mean, I showed you the picture of this little baby earlier.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yes, beautiful.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Beautiful baby, and that baby had a 98% chance of not having that beautiful little smile. So, it's the right thing to do. Can we win? Absolutely. But I think we really must win.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You know, I've said this before, but we can't do anything to earn our salvation. We all know that, but there are times in our lives as we try to serve the Lord, that we think we feel Him or see Him smile. Have you ever felt like he's saying, "I saw that? I saw what you did."<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Yeah. I mean, here's some free advice, medical advice for everybody out there, unless Jesus comes, y'all are going to die, and that is just the inevitable part of life; that we're all going to die, but then what happens? Well, to be absent from the body is present with the Lord, and I think about that moment when we will be face to face with Jesus and we think about eternity here in heaven and we're going to think back to the 70, 80, maybe 90 years we had for Kingdom Service here on this earth and we're going to think back about what we did for Kingdom Service.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: I think that all of us, when we look back at events like doing the right thing, sharing the Gospel, standing up for somebody else, standing up for the pre-born, defending the lives that are threatened by abortion. What's our goal? Our goal is to have Jesus look down at us. Maybe because we're going to be on our knees yelling, "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you," because we're here for eternity and I think we all have that goal for Jesus, to put his chin down and say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant," and that should be all of our goals as we strive for Kingdom Service, everybody here at Family Talk, and everybody that's listening.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I care about that more than anything else in the world.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: If it takes our fastest rocket ship 54,000 years just to get to our closest star, that's distance, and distance and time are related. Hundreds of billions of stars, hundreds of billions of galaxies, gives you an idea of what eternity is and we may get 80, 90 years here on this planet to do that Kingdom Service, and we'll have new roles when we get to heaven. But this is our primary role now, is service kingdom.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Dr. William Lile, you've been our guest for two days. I'm just so grateful that you came here. You have ministered to me again and I've had this same passion that you have, to preserve as many of those tiny precious lives as possible. I will devote myself to it for as long as I have breath on this earth and if I can influence more people through radio and books and what we've tried to do, to make the right choice and, do the right thing that you just talked about. What a wonderful use of time and energy and your belief system. You've helped us do this today.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: If people still have questions, they can always go to our website. Our website is prolifedoc.org. We have DVDs that are available that go through a lot more things than we were able to cover in this show, and just a lot of videos that are posted, and is abortion a sin? Yes. Is it a forgivable sin? Yes. And our goal is to share that forgiveness and to share that healing that only comes through the blood of Jesus Christ.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You are a hero of mine, sir.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Thank you sir.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Well indeed. Dr William Lile is a champion for the pro-life cause, and an advocate for the pre-born. You can learn more about his practice and the DVD presentation he just mentioned, when you visit the broadcast page at Drjamesdobson.org. Now, if you were moved by what Dr. Lile has been sharing here over the past couple of days, please let us know about it. I urge you to call our offices here in Colorado Springs at 877 732 6825. Once you're connected with us, you can choose the feedback line option to leave your thoughts on these broadcasts. You can also select the option to speak with one of our representatives who will be standing by. They'll be happy to talk with you, pray for you, or help you find any of our useful resources. Again, our number is 877 732 6825, and we look forward to hearing from you.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Well, that's all the time we have for today, here on Family Talk. Be sure to join us again tomorrow when you'll hear a classic conversation Dr. Dobson had with author and speaker, Becky Tirabassi. She explains the decision that forever changed her life, and how you can make that same choice as well. It's a fantastic story of God's grace and forgiveness, so I hope you'll join us next time for more of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Speaker 4: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.<br />"
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<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, hello everyone, I'm James Dobson, and you're listening to Family Talk, the radio ministry of James Dobson Family Institute. I am grateful that you've joined us today because this is going to be such an important broadcast, and I think you'll see why in a moment. Today is January 22nd, which we remember from 1973 is the date that will live in infamy. Those are the words of Franklin Roosevelt after Pearl Harbor, but I use those same words today advisedly because it relates to the day the United States Supreme Court declared abortion legal, to murder pre-born babies throughout the entire nine months of pregnancy. It didn't say that, but those were the implications, and that's what has occurred.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Since that heartless assault on human life, 60 million babies have been murdered. I use that word advisedly. They continue to be killed without anesthetics and without compassion. The killing goes on every hour of every day. Each and every unborn baby that is murdered in that way is designed by God. That's what King David said. "You knitted me together in my mother's womb and I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made." The Lord has a divine purpose for these babies, and we must defend them against the evil of abortion. It is evil.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Now, I have a guest here in the studio with us today that I respect as highly as anybody that I've had the opportunity to meet. His name is Dr. William Lile. He is a board-certified obstetrician and gynecologist, and the founder of ProLifeDoc.org. He has his own private practice near Pensacola, Florida. He previously served as Vice President and Chairman at the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Sacred Heart Hospital in Florida. Dr. Lile worked as an adjunct clinical assistant professor for the ob-gyn residency program for the University of Florida and Florida State University. He's also medical advisor for many pro-life organizations and he's a fellow for the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Dr. Lile is here in the studio today, as I said, and I'm so glad to have him. He has just done a video a year or two ago called God's Miracle of Life. I hope you get a chance to see it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Dr. Lile, thank you for being here. I respect you so highly for what you do. Tell me as a place to start, where your passion for the unborn child ... You call it pre-born child.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: I do.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: First tell me why and then tell me where this passion came from.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: My passion really came from my parents. My parents are great godly, God-loving, Jesus-loving parents who used books that you wrote to help raise me.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Smart people.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Smart people, wise people. It's amazing that it's gone full circle. They raised me with these principles, and now I have the honor of being here with you now to discuss how I have used those principles in my life and in my passion and in kingdom service. I don't see a difference in the child whether inside the womb or outside of the womb. We treat the pre-born as patients. We know that they are genetically unique from the moment of conception. When that one cell from the mother and the one cell from the father come together, that one cell is different from the other seven billion people on our planet. It's its own person. It has its own genetics. It can have its own gender. So, from the very beginning, it's a new person.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: We are treating the pre-born as patients at a younger and younger age. It's amazing how we can not only have the diagnostic tools, but actually the surgical interventions. At our hospital, we can actually give a blood transfusion to the baby directly into the umbilical vein as early as 19 weeks gestation. Centers in Boston and Philadelphia and Houston and Cleveland are now doing heart surgery on the babies as early as 21 weeks gestation. They are dilating heart valves. They are putting in stents. They are treating the pre-born as patients. So, when we talk about the pre-born, it is the same person whether it's inside the womb or on the outside of the womb. The only major event between the inside-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Is the address.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Is the address. It's a change in address. I'm on the inside of the womb, and then I'm gonna be on the outside of the womb, but it's the same person.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Isn't it amazing that when this movement began and when Roe v. Wade occurred, the radical feminists and others referred to those little babies as a blob of tissues.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Correct.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: As meaningless protoplasm. The horrendous nature of that has been verified by the things that have happened scientifically since then, but can you imagine that that was taken seriously in the early days? It was an absolute lie.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: It was. In fact, the Supreme Court decision with Roe versus Wade said that the word person as used in the 14th amendment did not apply to the pre-born. They were not persons. Well, if we're treating them as patients, they are clearly persons. We're doing heart surgery. We're doing spina bifida surgery. We're doing bladder surgery. We're doing blood transfusions on these babies in the womb. We are saving their lives in the womb, so if they are patients, they are persons.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Again, where did this originate? Was it early on that your parents began talking to you about the value of life? Where did it come from?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: A story actually I've never told in a public fashion was when my mom was carrying me. My mom had a very difficult early part of the pregnancy. Back in 1965, her physician, because she was so sick, hospitalized, and having so many problems, he really recommended that she terminate my life back in 1965.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Really? You never revealed that before?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Nope, first time. In fact, I didn't know that story until just a few years ago. From that time when I was in the womb, my mom said no regardless of the risk to her life. She said, "I'm gonna continue with this pregnancy and I am going to have my child have every opportunity to live." That's about as early as I can really say that that had changed my life, was from the womb. Growing up, we were very involved in pro-life issues with the idea of kingdom service. Kingdom service was something we went to Christian schools and we realized from a young age that maybe we're blessed with 70 or 80 years here on Earth, in return to spend eternity with Christ in heaven. So, what do we do during this 70, 80, 90 years when we have the opportunity to do kingdom service for him in return for eternity? So, that's always been a goal for my parents and for myself and the whole family.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: I've tried to instill that in my daughters as well, that that is our primary thing. We have our professions. We excel in what we are called to do, but we also have our passions and we also have our kingdom service. We want to share the gospel. We have a duty to share the gospel. We have a duty to protect those that need protection. That would be the pre-born, the most innocent that we have.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You were eight years old, as I calculated, when Roe v. Wade occurred.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Correct.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Did you understand it?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: No.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Did anybody explain it to you?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: No.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: When did you comprehend what a horrendous thing had taken place here?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: It was probably when I went to a first pregnancy center banquet, and probably didn't really understand all the ramifications. You would see babies, and you knew that a baby on the inside was really no different from a baby on the outside. How could they take the life of the baby on the inside?<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Just a short trip down the birth canal-<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: That's all it is.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Which changes nothing.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Just the address. That's all it changes. It just changes the address. Even when I talk to patients now, the personality of a baby on the inside is the same as the personality of a baby on the outside. If somebody says, "Oh my goodness, this kid is up from one o'clock in the morning until four in the morning kicking around all inside of me. I just can't wait to have this baby, so I can get some rest." It's like, mm-mm (negative) because if this baby is active between one and four in the morning on the inside, this baby's gonna be active between one and four on the outside. Babies that are laid back and chill on the inside are usually laid back and chill on the outside. It's no difference.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Did you tell me that you saw in an MRI, an image of a baby trying to stand in the womb?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Yeah. I had always had patients come in and it's like, "Oh, how's your baby moving around?" "Oh, this baby is just dancing on my cervix. It is just doing the tap dance." It wasn't until I saw an MRI image, that's actually on our DVD, of a baby who was in the womb that was obviously cramped like he was traveling coach in an airliner, and wanted to stretch. This baby on the MRI image just stands up, is struggling. It's trying to lock out its knees and just have them be straightened, and it completely stands up vertically there on the inside. So when I-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That is unbelievable.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Have patients tell me that, I said, "I know. I have seen that. Babies do stand up and they do dance on the cervix."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Isn't that incredible?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: It is.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And there's no doubt about the fact that that is a human being with individuals characteristics and features and everything that you would expect for a human being in development.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: It's just a miracle. And it's not only a miracle when we can see the babies moving around on the inside. It's a miracle from the moment of conception, when that genetically is a new person. We think we're having scientific advances when we're doing heart surgery, bladder surgery, spinal surgery, but those are really primitive when you consider fetal development. We can see what happens but what we have no clue is how it knows to do what it does. How do two cells, one from the mom, one from the dad, come together, form one cell with 23 chromosomes, and as that one cell becomes two, eight, 16, 32 cells, how do two cells divide and one says, "You know what, we all have the same 23 pairs of chromosomes. From now on, I'm gonna start the entire skeletal system." And another cell says, "Well you know what, I'm gonna start the whole cardiovascular system." And another one says, "I'm gonna start the whole neurologic system."<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: They all have the exact same blueprints and exact same chromosomes. It's just a divine creation, and it's such a design, there had to be a designer. We don't know, have any idea. It's called cell differentiation. How do cells divide and say, "I'm gonna from now on start this system"? We see it happen. We know when it happens. How it knows what to do, we have no clue.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: My field is child development. Early on, I wanted to know more about that incredible process, how that little one cell creature zygote goes on to become fully understandably visibly human. It's very very early, isn't it?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: It's extremely early. We can see the heart clearly beating less than 28 days after conception.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Isn't there a little flash of light when those two half-cell haploids come together in a one cell?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: When the dad's cells are involved in conception, they all think they're Michael Phelps. They are swimming and swimming. They want to get the gold medal. But there's no silver. There's no bronze. There's only a gold medal. It's the first sperm that actually gets inside of that cell, but you don't want to have more than one. So, the egg will actually, as soon as that first sperm gets in there, it puts up a shield and that shield is called a zone of pellucida. When that happens, there is lots of changes. The chromosomes from the dad now get in. The shield has to go up, and there is something called depolarization of zinc ions. Zinc ions come rushing out. Calcium ions go rushing in and there is a visible flash of light when you use the right frequency of light to look at that.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: So when people say, "Well we really don't know when life begins," there's a flash of light.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Oh, yes we do.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: There's a huge change when that moment of conception actually happens.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Let me read this familiar passage. Many of our listeners will be very aware of this verse. It's actually several verses in Psalms. This is David's own writing and words. Allow me to read this for you. I don't often read on the air, but this is worth it. "For you formed my inward parts. You knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works. My frame was not hidden from you. When I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the Earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance. In your book were written every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them." Isn't that amazing?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: It's amazing. It's beautiful.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: David is talking about that process that you and I have been discussing.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Correct. Cell differentiation and then you look at the verses where God is talking to us. I love Jeremiah 1:5 where God says to Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee. Before thou camest out of the womb, I sanctified thee. I set you apart and ordained you to be a prophet unto the nations." God is telling Jeremiah, "I knew you before you were born. I actually sanctified you and I set you apart while you were in the womb. While you were still in the inside of your mother, I set you apart because I knew you had a purpose. You were gonna be a profit of my nations." So, does God have a relationship with us? Sure.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: How dare us interrupt that process and kill that baby. 60 million of them. Tell me this is not evil.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: There's no doubt it is evil. Can we win? Absolutely, but I think we must win. With such evil, 60 million lives. If you travel around the world, you see how blessed the United States is. Poverty in the United States is above the level of wealth of many other countries. We've been blessed and we've been protected, but how long will that hand of protection, how long will that blessing continue with a nation that is taking the lives of 60 million children while in the womb? We have a duty to protect the pre-born and we are not performing that duty. We know that God has a relationship with us when we're still in the womb.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: In Romans 5:8, God demonstrated his own love for us in this, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Well, when did we become sinners? Did we become sinners the moment we were born? Well, in Psalm 51:5, the scripture says that we were sinful from the time my mother conceived me, says the NIV. We were born with the sin nature. We were sinners from the moment of conception. So if Christ came, lived a perfect life, gave his life on the cross for us, conquered death, rose again for that gift of salvation for us to experience eternal life. If God would send his son for sinners and we also now know that the pre-born are sinners, then God sent his son for the pre-born. If the pre-born are that important, then surely the pre-born deserve our protection as well.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Three blocks from my house is a major Planned Parenthood center. I can't go to work, I can't drive out toward the freeway without passing that. I see these cars parked out there, and I think about the women who are going through that procedure and my heart goes out to them because they are either confused about what's taking place inside of them or they are many times coerced I think to do this by parents or others. I don't condemn them. That's up to the Lord to do. We also, as we're talking about this marvelous process, we must talk about forgiveness for those who do kill a baby because there is no sin God cannot forgive.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Correct.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Dr. Lile, there is a new commercial. I guess it's new. I only saw it this week, for Planned Parenthood that really makes me sick in my stomach. There is an image, a beautiful video of a little girl. She must not be over three months old, and she is giggling and gurgling and smiling. There is a phrase that comes on the screen that says, "She deserves to be wanted." Then it goes on. You hear the music behind and it says, "She deserves to be loved." Finally it says, "She deserves to be a choice." How cruel. How arrogant. How disgusting this is, and yet it is apparently a commercial that's out there for all the world to see.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: It is. What this child needs and what this child deserves is this child deserves to be born. There's no difference whether the child is on the inside or the child is on the outside. When we're doing surgery on the pre-born, there's a process called informed consent. Anybody who's had surgery, informed consent is a process. It's not just a form that you sign. There are risks, benefits, indications, and alternatives that are explained. ACOG, our governing body, defines informed consent as, "Seeking informed consent expresses respect for the patient as a person. It particularly respects a patient's moral right to bodily integrity."<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Taking a life apart in the womb is not respecting bodily integrity. A consent is when the risks, benefits, indications, and alternatives are discussed with the mom. What are the benefits when it comes to fetal surgery to the mom? There are no benefits to the mom. The mom doesn't have any benefits. All benefits go to the baby. The baby is the one who benefits from the procedure. Mom takes risks, bleeding, infection, but the benefits go to the baby. So, in a lot of facilities when the mom is signing the consent form, yes she's signing a consent for the procedure that she's about to have, but she also signs a consent for her child, her baby in the womb because there are risks to the baby. Whether we're doing a blood transfusion or doing a surgery on the baby on the inside, there are risks to the baby. So just as if the baby was one month old and the mom has signed a consent for the baby to have surgery, mom is signing a consent for the baby to have surgery in the womb because it's a patient, and if it's a patient it's a person, so we get a consent.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: We treat the moms as patients, but we also treat the pre-born, the patient on the inside, as a person. If this patient is a person on the inside, then yes they deserve our protection. You say, "Well the baby can't consent." Well, when a newborn is born, a baby can't consent either, but there's still a process. In fact, ACOG says, "Informed consent by the patient is impossible in that situation. A surrogate decision maker should be identified to represent the patient wishes or what is in the patient's best interest."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yeah, they're voiceless.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: They are voiceless.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: They do not have an opportunity to beg for their own lives. You have delivered 4000 to 5000 babies?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Right around 4000 babies at this point. Yes, sir.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Is there still a little thrill that occurs?<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Oh, there's always a thrill. There's always a thrill, especially when we have the privilege of having somebody referred over by a pregnancy center who was considering terminating that pregnancy, and we have the opportunity to do an ultrasound, show them the baby, show them the fingers, the hands. At that point, they might already be scheduled to have an abortion. We'll sit with them. We'll pray with them. We'll show them the life in the womb and we'll counsel them. Then they'll decide to choose life, to allow their child to be born. Then we'll sit down with them six weeks after they've had their baby, and their baby's in the little carrier, all dressed real pretty in lace. You can't help but take a second and say, "Can you remember where we were six or seven months ago? Can you imagine what your life would be like now if this baby wasn't in your life?"<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: The moms cry. The dads cry when they look, and they were so close of not allowing that life to come into their lives. They look back on that time. It's like, "How could I have even thought about doing that to this life that I would now defend with my life, yet I was almost to the point where I was willing to sacrifice that life."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Dr. Lile, thank you for being a friend of the pre-born child and for devoting your life to this purpose. I want you to come back. I want you to be here tomorrow, if you will.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: I'd be happy to.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: To discuss a recent case that involved abortion reversal.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: Oh, I'd be happy to.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: It is very inspirational. Thank you for what you do, sir, and for your love for God's creation.<br />
<br />
Dr. Lile: It's an honor to serve his kingdom.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: This is Roger Marsh. What a moving broadcast on this edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. We are formed by the very hands of God in our mother's womb. These innocent pre-born children must be protected from the evil of abortion. By the way, you can learn more about Dr. William Lile and his practice by visiting today's broadcast page at DrJamesDobson.org. You'll find a link there for Dr. Lile's website and you can also request a copy of his inspiring pro-life DVD when you click through. Through this presentation, he explains the horrors of abortion and why we must choose life. You can find information on all of that at the broadcast page at DrJamesDobson.org. Just go to DrJamesDobson.org and then click onto the broadcast tab.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Lastly, where do you find support on matters relating to faith, family, and culture? If you're unsure, I encourage you to sign up for Dr. James Dobson's uplifting newsletter. Every month you'll receive clarity on tough issues facing your family and encouragement for your Christian walk. You can cut through the noise of everyday life and find wisdom and direction from Dr. Dobson. Sign up for his monthly newsletter when you talk to one of our representatives after you call (877) 732-6825. Again that number is (877) 732-6825.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to join us again tomorrow to hear the conclusion of Dr. James Dobson's conversation with the pro-life doc, Dr. William Lile. I hope you'll join us then for another edition of Family Talk. Have a blessed day, everyone.<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.</span>"
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<br />
Roger Marsh: Welcome, everyone, to Family Talk, the radio ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh with your host, world-renowned child psychologist and bestselling author, Dr. James Dobson. All throughout scripture, God reminds us of our unique personhood. From the moment of conception, a new life is different from every other person in history. It's quite a breathtaking concept when you think about it.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: This truth is why all of us here at James Dobson Family Institute boldly fight for the sanctity of human life. This past Friday was the nationwide March for Life with the main event culminating in Washington, DC. This year's event was a huge success, with millions of people supporting the pro-life cause. We are continuing this call to action through our radio broadcast over the next three days. These upcoming interviews are focused on the intricate life inside a mother's womb. Today you'll hear a classic conversation Dr. Dobson had with his good friend, John Bornschein.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: John has a powerful pro-life testimony that we can't wait for you to listen to. Here now is Dr. James Dobson to further introduce today's guest on this broadcast of Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: We have a guest here today who has been working with Shirley and me for, what John? 20 years. Several years ago you started a church near here in Colorado Springs, out by Fort Carson. Tell me about your church.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: Well, how many broadcasts do we have?<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Plenty.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: I love talking about our church. It's one of those where you just say, "Okay, God is pushing and He's getting us out of our comfort zones." For my wife and I, that's what He did. We were very comfortable in our service and work with the ministries that God has put under your charge and your amazing wife's charge with the National Day of Prayer. I've had the privilege of serving her for 12 years. The need for prayer in America is great. If it's ever a day when we need prayer, it's today. And yet, at the same time, God was burdening us to get behind the pulpit, get into that place of shepherding, of being with people.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: I think the greatest burden I was starting to see is prayerlessness and instead of talking at pastors, I wanted to talk with them. I wanted to come alongside of them and understand their burdens, praying with people, mobilizing prayer right here in Colorado Springs. So, God gave us a family of military people, people who are serving our country day in and day out. It has been growing every year. It's Calvary Fellowship Fountain Valley. We are just excited to be serving there.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Now John, we're going to do something very unusual today. You have had a family history that will touch the hearts of our people. I know of where you came from and I know some of the circumstances, particularly in the life of your mother, who was very young at the time. You have written your story, and you have a copy of it in front of you. I could interview you about it, but I would like you to just read what you have written because it is really very remarkably stated.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Let's start with you reading that. We don't often read things on the broadcast, but I would love for you to do that today, and then we'll talk about it.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: Well, thank you. I will do my best not to choke up. Every time I read this, it's very personal for me.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You started at the top. There's a line at the top of this statement. It's almost a letter. It says, "I am alive because of prayer."<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: That's right.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Tell us about it.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: Well, let me read this, and I pray that these words touch someone today. As you're listening to this, this is my story. It's very real, very personal. Let me take you back to 1973. During that year, gasoline was 40 cents a gallon. The Sears Tower opened in Chicago. The US withdrew its troops from Vietnam. Skylab was launched into space, and Nixon declared, "I am not a crook," during the Watergate hearings. Billie Jean King defeated Bobby Riggs during the Battle of the Sexes tennis match. The Supreme Court rendered a decision on January 22nd making abortion a US Constitutional right.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: It was also during this year that the course of my life was dramatically altered before I had ever taken my first breath. You see, it was 1973 that my mother, only a teenager at the time, fled for her life. She was running away from the sexual abuse she had endured at the hands of her stepfather. Living in perpetual fear, her only recourse was to run. She made her way to California where she found a group of other troubled teens. The leader of the pack was a smart but wayward mechanic who was also a drug runner. Trouble is a magnet for the lost, an oasis to the broken. The group welcomed my mother, and she followed her angry heart into their open arms. The phrase, troubled youth, does not adequately describe the rebellious outcry that became her defense against vulnerability.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: In her mind, she would never again be the victim. Yet in the midst of bad choices and a lifestyle that was sure to lead her to prison, she became pregnant. This seems to have been the inevitable outcome of this environment of free love with an endless supply of drugs and alcohol. So, like so many others in her position, she made the only choice that seemed right. After all, how could she possibly raise a child when she couldn't feed herself and had little desire to be alive? The man responsible encouraged her to abort the baby and she did. The effects to her body were harmful. She bled horribly, and the scar tissue was severe. Suddenly aware of the brutal reality that she had just become victim of her own choices, she cried out to God for help, a God she didn't know and resented.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: But this experience didn't stop her from returning to the lifestyle she knew. It wasn't long before she became pregnant again despite the scar tissue. Shocked and disbelieving, she again determined to end this life interruption. But as she contemplated in exasperation, the God she had cried out to answered her. At that moment, she knew she had to take a stand. God had intervened. My mother made the decision for life and chose to carry her baby to term.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: And Doctor, if I may just intervene. I think this is one of my original letters I wrote. I want to just make sure that the audience understands that you were a critical piece to that. I shared that with you in a separate letter that, as I was writing these words, my mother and I, we didn't have an open conversation really about this. It didn't come out til later where she finally unveiled to me that God had used you. She heard your voice on the radio. She had heard others speaking into her life, and it was a Holy Spirit moment.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Was I talking about abortion?<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: You were. I think 1975, '76, right in that area. You were a voice for the unborn. To this day, when she found out that I was going to be working with you ... She had never told me up until a decade into my tenure at Focus on the Family, that you had done this. She was so embarrassed. She was so wounded by her own past that we didn't even talk about these things. She said, "It was Dr. Dobson's voice on the radio that was one of those Holy Spirit moments that turned me around that day."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: So that influenced her? Hearing that broadcast influenced her-<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: That's right.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... to not have the abortion?<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: That's right. That's right. God used that. That was one of the many voices she heard. She didn't listen to Christian radio. She wasn't a believer. She was coming from an extremely broken home. I'll elaborate on that a little more here with this letter. But I just want you to know that it was because of your faithfulness to stand in the gap. She just remembered your young, passionate voice and defending life. I think it was later you said you wouldn't cast a vote for anyone who would dare take the life of the unborn. She just remembers that passion.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: So I really am here today because you stood in the gap.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: John, I give the Lord the credit for that because I ached over what was happening. That was two years into the Roe v. Wade decision and era. My pastor was not talking about it. Other Christians, at least in the Protestant realm, didn't seem to understand it, didn't seem to care. It never came up. I had many, many Christian friends saying, "Why do you get all excited about this? This is the law of the land. This is what the Constitution says." I began railing on behalf of the unborn child. It was a message that was placed in my heart by my Heavenly Father and by, frankly, my earthly father, who had a big impact.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: But for you to be one of those that says, "This baby was saved because of that work," I am very, very grateful for that. I don't take the credit for it. Go on with the letter.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: Okay. But this experience didn't stop her from returning to the lifestyle she knew. It wasn't long before she became pregnant again despite the scar tissue. Shocked and disbelieving, she became determined to end this life interruption. But as she contemplated in exasperation, the God she had cried out to answered her. At that moment, she knew she had to take a stand. God had intervened. My mother made the decision for life and chose to carry her baby to term. But here's the cold reality. There wasn't a red carpet awaiting her when she returned home that night. There were no flowers in a thoughtfully positioned vase. There was only the reality that she was about to become a young mom.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: She still had no idea how she was going to make it through tomorrow, let alone the next day or the day after that. She had no support and no plan. But that wasn't a problem for the God who had just touched her heart. He was about to make a way in the wilderness, and I praise God for the pregnancy centers across America that are doing this service for women every single day. They aren't just engaged in the business of saving babies, they are engaged in the business of saving lives by reading out to the moms and dads that society has turned its back against. They are God's hands in action giving medicine to the brokenhearted and hope to the hopeless.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: That's only the beginning of her story. There were still more turns and twists to come, but God was present in each part of her journey. My mother decided it was time to move forward with her life. She moved, took a new job, and tried to create an environment suitable for her new son. She knew the best place for her son was at a church, and there just happened to be a small but growing church down the road from her new home, Terry Road Baptist Church. She contacted the church, acquired the van's schedule, and prepared to send me off to Sunday school the next weekend.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: As much as she wanted to, she felt that she couldn't take those first steps into church herself. She was too ashamed of her past. She was scared she would be judged, confronted. But she didn't want those fears to hold back her son. Her strength and firm resolve against vulnerability would serve her well to push through those tough decisions. So my mother did one of the bravest things I can remember. She walked right through the front doors of that little church, and you know what? Not one person put their finger to her chest, judged her for her previous life. No, the body of Christ acted like the body of Christ, welcoming her with open arms.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: I have fond memories of Sunday school, friends, fun, and stories of hope and redemption. I took home all of my art projects, those illustrated stories of Noah, Moses, and Jesus. My mom would take those projects into her hands, smile, pull me in with a warm embrace. She would then put magnets to all four corners and proudly display them on the refrigerator. Little did I know that each weekend those stories were opening her heart to God more and more. At just eight years old, I was an evangelist. As a result, my mother started attending regularly, gave her heart to Jesus Christ, and I accepted Christ right there with her. Eventually she became the church secretary, planned the youth programs, and even went to work for Dr. Charles Stanley in Atlanta, Georgia. What a turnaround.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: Sure, she made some mistakes, but God had a greater plan for her life, and she took the baton and ran with it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: The essence of it is that your mother was totally, completely lost. Like you said, she had no plan. She had no future. There was no one to take care of her. And yet, she heard a message of love and accepted a relationship with Christ, and he began to work in her life and also in yours.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: That's right.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Now John, we need to know the rest of the story. This explanation that you wrote and that we just heard you read goes back to the year 2000, but the truth of the matter is, you didn't know that you were the little baby that was about to be aborted. You didn't find that out til you were grown.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: I did not. In fact, my mother and I, we just didn't talk about this. This is one of those pasts that I can't imagine the burdens that my mother was holding onto for all of these years. In fact, I had already started my work alongside you and was doing the work of ministry, and she finally came forward and said, "I need to tell you something. You need to know the truth of how God has worked in this situation."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: So you didn't know any of the story that we just heard?<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: No. No. I knew that my mother had been through difficulty, but I didn't know that I was the baby that almost wasn't. In fact, I didn't know how many decisions to take life that my mother had to bear for so long. "I made three decisions before you, to take the life of those babies."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And they were aborted?<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: They were, all three. All three in a very short period of time.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And you were saved?<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: I was. You see how God has worked in this. It's been amazing. If I can, just for the last four years, I just want to share with your listeners. We had the privilege in 2012 of talking about some of this, about my history growing up and what God had revealed. You invited me on the broadcast because I wrote you a letter, and I wanted you to know that you are a warrior in this culture. I wanted you to know that after my mother shared with me what she had finally opened up to convey to me, that you needed to know that because of your obedience to almighty God and standing in the gap, I was here today as a result of that. I just couldn't wait to tell you, so I penned you a letter just to personally thank you for that.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: And then you invited me on the broadcast. Well, because I told my mother, "Guess where I'm going? I'm going on the broadcast with Dr. Dobson," in conversation-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And she said, "Don't you dare." What did she say?<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: It was hard. It was hard on me because she'd only given me a glimpse of her struggle and the pain that she had gone through. This was dividing our family, all of this history and the pain that was involved. It's one of those things even as a believer you just go, "Let's focus on what God is doing now. Let's not talk about that. Let's not bring that up. Where we're at is where God wants us to be." But what she hadn't really addressed was the fact that in her were all of these wounds that were still deep down inside, scars, brokenness, a feeling of worthlessness that she truly could not be fully redeemed by the blood of Jesus. She had made too many bad choices and that God was still upset with her over these things.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: She hadn't released that. So here on the outside, we looked like the perfect Christian family to everybody. I'd already been working in ministry. Everything looked like it's going great. And then she finds out I'm going on the broadcast with you to talk about some of our life journey, and she just broke down and wept and just finally unleashed, "Here's the truth. You need to know that I have had three abortions, and I was this close to making you number four. Had it not been for God using that man to stand in the gap, you may not be here today." She has carried that shame.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: Through this process, Doctor, ever since our last broadcast on this, people need to know that it has opened up conversation in our family that has brought so much healing. What they heard was a story of hope. There was even greater hope on the horizon.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: John, there is healing for others at that point, which is why I wanted you to be here. We're talking to a lot of people, a lot of women particularly who have walked this same path. It may not have involved abuse, but it certainly involved sexual sin and the sin of abortion. And yet, even though God has forgiven them, they haven't forgiven themselves. But they can find that forgiveness because God is the God of not only current sin, but sin that He is forgiving and canceled. That will be very encouraging to a lot of the people who are listening to us.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: What else did your mother tell you?<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: Oh my. Well, after our broadcast, the journey felt like it only began. Here I thought we were now telling of the testimony of the work that Jesus Christ had done where my mother, coming out of this horrific start and how God really brought me down a path of ministry service, this ministry person who would never have been had you not stood in the gap, had she not listened to the Holy Spirit, and I wouldn't be here pastoring a church today had that story gone the way the Enemy had wanted it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: How does that make you feel, to know the role that the Lord played in your life?<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: It is so humbling. I mean when he says in 1 Corinthians chapter one that he uses the broken things. He uses the weak to bring down the strong, the foolish to shame the wise. I think that is my resum&eacute;. I think that all of us, we really can identify with that, that God intentionally plucked out the weakest. He picks King David and he wasn't even in the room. His own dad didn't even think that he was to be king of Israel. "You go take care of the sheep. The boys and I have this." He always uses the underdog, and I just praise him for that. I think everyone listening today can probably look in the mirror and feel like an underdog from time to time, and that's who God uses. It's so exciting.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: Ever since we shared that story, I had the privilege of sharing that story with you on the broadcast, my mother and I had these moments of healing that I can't put to words. She came to one of the galas. After I came on the broadcast with you, I was invited by a number of pregnancy centers to share my testimony. The last one that was here in Colorado Springs, she came to, and they gave her a standing ovation. She then signed up with that pregnancy center here in Colorado Springs, went through the healing process, had a memorial service for the three babies whom she had chosen to take their life, named them because she felt the Holy Spirit gave them names, and now she's counseling other women.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: This all happened in the last six weeks. So I mean this is fresh and it's exciting. And it's all because of you, Doctor. I can't serve you enough in my gratitude.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Oh dear. You're overstating that, but it's a miracle any way you slice it. You've got brothers and sisters in heaven that you don't know about or haven't known about.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: I haven't. The way they go through a memorial service ... She bought clothes for them and put that right underneath their candles and had a memorial service.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Did she get healing from it?<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: Our relationship is unbelievable right now. The release, the feeling that God has forgiven her, that she's had that moment of reconciliation with God, has brought such healing into our family. She now has had her mom come and now living with her two weeks ago because she wants to be a caretaker. She feels this release of just service now. It's just amazing the domino effect, the ripple in the pond, whatever you want to call it. It's impacting our whole family story. And all of that because a man on a radio who honored God said, "Choose life." Oh, praise God. What a story.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, John, referring to my situation, as you know, I left Focus on the Family and everybody thought I was going to retire and expected us to. I said to Shirley, "I just feel God's hand in my back because the job is not done." The babies are still being killed. Families are still falling apart. We have an opportunity to reach a lot of those people. How can we go sit on a front porch some place and retire. That's why we're still here because we're attempting to do what we can in a broken world, a broken society.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: John, you give me encouragement. You give me strength. I am grateful that you now are out there speaking on these subjects. You said you've been to a crisis pregnancy center. You feel called to do that?<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: I do. And in fact, I'm encouraging my mother to do the same. In fact, we talked about that. Would she ever be a voice for women going through this? I said to her, "That would be a Holy Spirit move of God." And now she's counseling, and she's serving in a pregnancy center. I believe she will. I'm excited for what God's about to do.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, John, I appreciate you. Shirley appreciates you. I'm so glad that you came to be with us today. Appreciate you being here to talk about what could be an unmentionable subject. This could be something that neither you nor your mother could talk about. This could be something that you never revealed to the outside world. But God's done a miracle here-<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: He has.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... in your life and her life, and now in the lives of those you've touched. I'm grateful for that.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: Thank you.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Thanks for the kind words that you said. We know who gets the credit.<br />
<br />
John Bornschein: Oh, we love you, Dr. Dobson. And I know all your listeners around the world love you, so thank you for standing in the gap.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: A truly incredible story of love and redemption here on Family Talk. John Bornschein and his mother's testimonies are proof that God is still doing miracles. It's great to hear how they are leading others to Christ and encouraging moms to choose life. You can learn more about John, his story, or his church when you visit our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org. Now, as we conclude today's broadcast, I want to encourage you to listen to Dr. James Dobson every day with your Amazon Alexa. This smart device allows you to stay up to date with our latest interviews through a simple command. Once you enable the Family Talk skill, just say, "Alexa, play today's broadcast of Family Talk." It's that easy.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Visit drjamesdobson.org/alexa to learn how to listen to Family Talk on your Amazon Alexa. Well, thanks for tuning in today and make sure you join us again tomorrow for a brand-new interview featuring Dr. Dobson and Dr. William Lyle. He's a pro-life doctor with profound medical research under his belt and amazing stories to tell. You will not want to miss what he will be sharing coming up next time, right here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Dr. Tim Clinton: Hi, everyone. This is Dr. Tim Clinton for Family Talk. Where do you go to receive support and advice for your family? We interact with thousands of people every day through our Facebook page. There you're going to find inspiring advice on what matters most to you, whether it's marriage or parenting. You can be sure our profile will keep you updated with how your family can succeed. Visit us at Facebook.com/drjamesdobsonsfamilytalk. Each day you're going to find our latest broadcast, helpful resources, inspirational pictures, and quotes. Nowhere else are you going to be able to start your day with a thought from Dr. Dobson as well as a special message before you go to sleep.<br />
<br />
Dr. Tim Clinton: Remember, you can be sure that every post on our page is created with you and your family in mind. Take time to visit us and become a part of our online community on Facebook, will you? Simply go to Facebook.com/drjamesdobsonsfamilytalk."
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Roger Marsh: Stress is an unfortunate part of life. And for mothers of younger children, it can be a regular occurrence. The daily tasks of packing lunches, cleaning messes, along with disciplining and teaching can be quite taxing. When this tension builds up and boils over, anger is often the immediate response. You're listening to Family Talk, a division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh with your host, child psychologist and respected author, Dr. James Dobson.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
On today's program, we're going to address that rage that mothers find themselves in through a conversation with Julie Barnhill. Julie has authored 12 books, including, She's Gonna Blow!, which is the center of our discussion here today. Julie is a frequent speaker at MOPS conventions and Hearts at Home conferences nationwide. She's very well spoken and an experienced mother of three. In a moment, she'll explain to Dr. Dobson why moms lose control and lash out at their kids. Julie will also share of a dark time in her life when she got a bit too physical with her own children. Let's listen in now to this thought-provoking conversation right here on this edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Our guest today is Julie Barnhill. She's written a number of great parenting books, including the one we're going to talk about today called She's Gonna Blow!: Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger. I'm almost sure I've never said this before, but this is a book that I wish I had written. There's so much here that's relevant to the family and I think is really going to be of help to people. Julie has been a guest on this program a few times now, as well as a number of different television and radio programs from NPR to the Oprah Winfrey Show to others. She's a former school teacher and a mother of three, and now she's a very popular speaker and author of She's Gonna Blow! Julie, I'm sure some of this is autobiographical, isn't it?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: A lot of it is-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: At least it comes out of your experience.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Been there done that. That's exactly- That's really the heart of writing and the heart of my speaking.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Were you a very explosive mom?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: You know, I was. It just simply blindsided me. I had no idea that was the kind of mother I was going to be. I like to say that I come out of an adoption, my past. I was adopted at age three, almost four years old. And I can remember as an eight-year-old girl, I remember this, praying and asking God to let me have children. I've often wondered if maybe there was some guilt or something like that. But you know, I wanted to be a mom, and I didn't leave a high-paying career and I didn't resent leaving the workforce as a public school teacher. Then, I had my first children, and-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Now, wait a minute. Before that, you were not an explosive person?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I was not. No. No, I got miffed, you know, irritated. My family, we don't argue, and my mom and dad [inaudible 00:03:09]. You know, you didn't yell at each other and things like that. So, no. I didn't have any idea that these kind of emotions were part of my makeup.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Isn't it interesting that children will bring that out in you?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Isn't that interesting?<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: It is. What was it about your kids that stirred such passion that you didn't know was there?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I think the number one thing is it's just it's tough. Children are hard to raise, and it's tough being a mom. I read all the books. I read the magazine articles. I wanted the children, but boy, when it came to the day-in-day-out realities, and the physical just wear of having a child, having it and then raising that child, and emotionally, and just being pulled in so many directions, and finding myself coming up short, you know, needing to go a little bit deeper and finding that I just didn't have any more to give that day.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Look back on those circumstances where you really felt out of control. What kinds of events were taking place? What were the kids doing?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And what were the triggers that led up to that. Well, I can tell you one story that this resonates so much with moms, and this is the kind of the reality of children and what you're not planned for. I had just had Ricky Neil. He is our second born. And went to the bank. I'd had a garage sale. I'd made over $700.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Wow.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Wow. I know. I sold everything, my husband's baseball equipment. You know, he doesn't have time for those things after being a father. Kristen was with me. She was absolutely adorable, and I was feeling so good. I had on some little capri pants and a knotted shirt at my hips, and I just thought I had it going. So, I'm there at the bank lobby, and Kristen is behind me entertaining. And I just thought, "I have the most precocious and wonderful child. I've just got this mothering thing down to a T," and I-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Watch out.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes. And I felt this little poke on my derri&egrave;re, just a little poke. And this little voice that said, "Big bottom, mama. Big bottom."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Oh, boy.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And everybody, they heard it. They started laughing, and I whipped around, unknotted my shirt, and I bent down and my good-mommy voice I was like, "Kristen, precious, we don't talk about mommy's bottom. You know, that's a no-no. So, don't say bottom again." So, I turned around and Kristen very compliant, firstborn child, didn't say anything. So, everything's right with the world, right? No. I get this punch in the derri&egrave;re, and she yelled as loud as could be, "Big butt, mama."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You got to be kidding.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I'm not lying. I just melted in a puddle of humiliation. I'd been accosted by a three-foot munchkin. So, you know, just that, the reality of that, and then going home and having a baby that you know, just ... I like to say Ricky just sucked the life out of me. He was a voracious baby. I loved him with all my heart, but he demanded my time, my energy. One of the worst case scenarios came at the end of a day when I just was worn out physically from having those two kids.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That's probably the key right there, Julie. You were exhausted.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I was exhausted.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: When you're that tired, the little things push you over the edge.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Right. And that's what I'll say a lot of times, you know-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I mean, you had two kids under 18 months.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes. My husband and I, you know, married, of course, and have this relationship, but I was really a single mom because he was traveling during the week and get home Friday night. Sunday morning, he's kind of packing his bags mentally getting ready for the trip on Monday, so bearing all of those things together. And exactly, sometimes I say, all it takes is that little poke: "mom, mom, mom," and you just [inaudible 00:06:48], you know? You just blow. You just blow up.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I remember hearing Shirley in the bathroom in the tub and Ryan at the door banging on the door and hearing her say, "Ryan, this is mommy's time. Ryan, go talk to your dad. Ryan, I ... " She couldn't take anymore.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Patrick, my youngest, at one point, I would let him ... He'd want to come in and love on me. That's what he'd say. "Mom, I want to love on you, you know, while you're in the restroom." And one day I realized, no, this is my time. Then, we close door, and his fingers are under the door and he's scratching. I mean, you just can't get away from them.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Julie, did it scare you when you blew up the first time?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, Dr. Dobson, I'll tell you what happened. This is when Kristen was the potty training and Rick, my husband, was traveling. Ricky, I would put him on a pallet on the floor and turn the mesh playpen upside down over him, because Kristen loved her little bubby so much that she would try to crawl in and she would land on the baby. You know, that's not good. So, I mean, this is ... You know, we had this whole system set up, and I just needed her to take a nap because I needed 20 minutes. That's all I needed. Financially, we were struggling. I mean, just every stress button there was.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
I put her down for a nap. She woke up. She came and woke me up. And I smelled her soiled pants. Ricky started crying. I started to have a letdown, you know, just ... And I just lost it. I scooped her up, a petite, tiny little thing, and I just shook her, I mean, violently shook her, and crying, and yelling all at the same time, saying, "You have to stay in your room. I need sleep. Why don't you mind mommy?" And when I got closer to her bed, I threw her on her bed.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
This is a story that I want to tell because so many moms, this really touches a chord with moms. I didn't plop her. I didn't place her. I threw her onto the bed, and she hit the wall. And immediately what did I feel? Guilt.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Ah, yes, yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Immediately. I love my child.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You very well could've done serious damage to that child.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, I could've. I stepped towards her, and she cowered. That immediately I'm thinking of the eight-year-old girl that I was who said, "Lord, please let me have children.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I think is that the place ... You mention in your book that you wrote in your journal-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... the day you had really lost it. Is that the occasion?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes, that is the day.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You've got it in your book. Can you lay your hands on it there?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Sure can. I wrote this in that day that that happened, immediately wrote this in my journal that evening. "I am so ashamed of who I am at times. I pray for mercy. God, please withhold your rightful anger from me. I was so angry at Kristen today. Now I am literally sick to my stomach. Where does this fury come from? How on earth can a two-year-old make me so crazy? It's as if I had become someone else. I never thought I would become like this as a mom. Does this come from sin? Is it just me? Is it a lack of love? Oh, God, is it possible I don't love my child? I want to be a mother who isn't like this. What a horrible, ugly mess. Where does this come from?"<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Those are agonizing questions, aren't they?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: They are. Did I not love my child? You know, I have a plan. If there's a fire, this is how I'm going to get the kids out. When we're on the street, I'm aware of the traffic. I would lay down my life for my children. And yet, anger had such a part in the early years that I questioned, because there had to be a reason for this. Could it be that I didn't love my child? Because what kind of mother who loves her child would do this?<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Who did you talk to about it, Julie? Did you tell your husband?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: You know, I didn't.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Did you have a friend that you could tell? I mean, you were in danger of abusing your children, you know that's-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Well, and that was abuse.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Of course it was.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I mean, Webster's defines it as excessive or inappropriate behavior. And this is one of the things I want moms to hear is that we can act excessively and inappropriately, and that is abuse. You know, two weeks after this occurred, I read in the newspaper of a woman who threw her child in anger, and the child hit a metal curtain rod. It pierced her temple, and it killed the child, two weeks after this. So actually, I had a Bible study group at the time, and I went and I just dumped on them. I love those women with all my heart, and they love me, but they didn't know what to do with that. There was absolutely-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: None of them admitted to have-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: No one admitted it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: They just weren't telling you. Some of them had to have gone through the same thing.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, yes, but that's-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: This is not something we want to admit, is it?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: No, and it's shame, regret, and self-condemnation. It's a cycle. I mean, those are the three things that I lived with day in and day out. You know, I'd have good days, and we'd have ... A good day is if I didn't have those three emotions at the end of the day, so-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: When you speak, Julie, what happens? When you open up and say these things, what happens?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, boy. The barriers just fall. I like to use humor, and one of the things I will always do is have everyone hold hands. I'll say, "You know, I want you to say, 'I am not alone,' because you know, there's ... Raise your hand if you thought you were going to be the only person here today. You know, there's always someone." Now, I am not alone, so you say that. Then, you look at someone and you say, "You are not alone." Just the power of that, just knowing that there's someone else struggling ... And look, this mom looks normal just like me, and yet she's struggling with these emotions.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You talk largely or most commonly to women. Is that right?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes, yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And you titled your book She's Gonna Blow! Now, everybody knows men get angry, too. Why She's Gonna Blow!?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Because this is the book I wanted to read 12 years ago. I literally went to book stores and would ask the male manager, usually, of the book store, I said, "Where's your section for angry, irritated mothers who wish they'd never had children?" And then they wouldn't know what to do with that, and that's what I wanted. I just wanted a book for moms that are struggling with that.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, it's very appropriate. Men get angry over other things.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly. You know, what I have found interesting is that I've had men write me and called me who have read the book and recognize that their wife is struggling with this. She doesn't recognize it, but he has seen it being played out and wants to know, "How can I approach her? What can I take into consideration and what's going on in her life?"<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Link it to PMS, Julie. Do you talk about that when you talk-?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, that's all part of the, yeah, of the things that play into it. And one of the suggestions I have is ... And I have trained my children from day one that they can honor and respect the fact that I am female and I hormonal, so we're going to have to all deal with it, you know?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Be careful today.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: We're either going to deal with it or deal with it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Watch out.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly. One of my ideas. You know, maybe this, we can get this off the ground here today, but it's a ther-mama-meter, and I would just love it to put a magnet that you can move, increase the temperature. So really, when your three-year-old comes down, he can have an awareness that that red is up here.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yeah, don't push mom too far today.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Right. So just be careful. And to have your husband to understand that and to honor that.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, it's also important for you to understand it.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And know what's going on.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: But you know, I think we know that as women, but maybe its teased about, or joked about, or we just don't honor ourselves enough to say-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yeah, but a lot of time women resent that. "You think it's just because it's premenstrual tension. That's what you think's going on. That's not true. I have a reason to be angry," and they defend it. You know what I'm talking about?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I know what you're talking about. See, I embrace it. I'm like, "I'm PMS 28 days out of the month." That's [inaudible 00:14:53]<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Oh, come on. That's a [inaudible 00:14:55] crutch. Julie, how big a problem is this?&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, I think it's huge. And you know, I wrote this book for the Christian women. I mean, it's big outside of the Christian circles, but boy, I think within our church system, we like things neat and tidy, Dr. Dobson. We like steps, and formulas, and strategies, and you do all these seven things and bada bing, bada bang, it's solved. And I'm here to say this is a journey. This is a journey. And really, seven years from the time I truly recognized and said, "God, help me. I have got to change," to when I realized, "My gosh. I'm not reacting the way that I would've four years ago or three years ago," that type of thing.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: So, this is a dirty little secret-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: It is.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... in the homes and families even of those who are deeply committed to Christ.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, it is. I think the things that kind of factor into it is because, boy, then we get into the discipline issue. You know, my argument is not spanking versus not spanking. My issue is some of us don't have any business spanking-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That's right.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: ... our children because we have no control.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I've written that many times.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: You have.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: If this is a problem for you, don't even go there.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly. But you know, we can get that pressure with our friends and our church families that: 'This is how you take care of it.' And you know, Ricky is a perfect example, my second born. In the womb, he moved. I swear I could open my mouth and see his elbow. He was all over the place. And he was born and he was bellowing, I mean, the moment we pushed him out. And my goal with Ricky was to fix him the first four years of his life. That was it. There was something wrong with him. He was just like his dad's side of the family, and he needed to be fixed. That was my heart. That was my attitude that there's something wrong.<br />
<br />
I went to a conference, Hearts at Home conference, and a speaker was talking about family dynamics and temperaments. That was the day when the Lord broke my heart. And for me, I realized Ricky's just like me. He's a sanguine. He likes to be life of the party and control things. But, that was the first day that my heart, I'm not lying, it melted, and I loved him for who he is and embraced him.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You know, in my book, Bringing Up Boys, I talked about the fact that many mothers see something in their sons that they don't recall in themselves because males are different than females, and they do feel that the boys need to be fixed. That's a very common maternal attitude towards boys, especially those that are climbing on things, and into things, and challenging, and competitive, and messy, and noisy, and all of that combined. So, they set out to fix them, but you can't fix that masculine behavior.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: No.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And in fact, if you try, you'll mess them up.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Well, let me give you a perfect story. He was four years old. He was downstairs in our basement with his best friend Collin and his sister Kristen, and it was an idyllic day. I mean, it was ... I had made Toll House cookies. Patrick had just woken up for nap. He was on my hip. I had red and white gingham-checked curtains. I mean, it was just perfect. The doorbell rings at our house, and we live in a town of 496 people, so the county sheriff has to come about 35 miles to our house. It's the county sheriff at my front door. He's like, "Ma'am, are you okay," through the screen door. I'm like, "I'm fine." He goes, "Well, we got a 911 call from this residence."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Oh, my.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And then we tried to call back, and someone didn't hang up the line. So, he said, "I just came 75 miles an hour from McComb to check on things." And ding, you know, this light bulb. I said, I've got somebody you need to talk to. So, I take him downstairs. I go first, and I ... You know, you can hear 'em scurrying, trying to hide. This sheriff, he comes out and he goes, "You kids come out right now," and I mean all three of 'em, they just came out. He said, "Who called 911?" And Kristen and Collin finked him out. I mean, there was no loyalty.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And this is what my son did. He stood and looked that sheriff straight in the eye, and I saw his shoulders go back and his chin go up. I would've wet my pants if I was four years old and there was a sheriff there.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: He took him on.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: That was a turning point also. That's when I realized - he's got his issues with authority, but, my harshness with him, because well-meaning family had said over the years, "You have got to rein him in. You cannot let him run over you. If you don't control him now, he's going to control you later." Well, I saw a hardness in Ricky Neil at age four that scared me, Dr. Dobson. I mean, I literally that night thought, "He's going to be in a federal penitentiary one day if something doesn't happen."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You do need to rein him in, but you can't do it all at once-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And you can't crush him.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... and you can't do it with anger.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly. And break him like that.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yeah, you just set up boundaries. That's a subject that I've dealt with. In your book, She's Gonna Blow! - and that's what we're talking about today - Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger, what a practical book. In it, you talk about the warning signs of anger-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes, yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... where people around you and children can begin to get, and especially the person who's inclined to get angry, can begin to recognize in herself that she's getting close to the line. What are those warning signs?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I like to kind of liken it to the smaller earthquakes before a volcano actually explodes. There are just hundreds of smaller earthquakes. And I got to thinking one day, "You know, I ... " You just don't wake up as a mother and go, "You know, I want to be an angry, mean mother today." I mean, you start off and you mean well, but sometimes you're not even allowed to wake up peacefully. You know, it's a screaming child, or it's a kid hanging over your head at 3:30 going, "I think I'm going to throw up." I mean, and that's how your day starts.<br />
<br />
So, I got to thinking, "What are some of the warnings signs? What are these smaller earthquakes?" Laundry is one that women relate to. It's never done. It's always there. Then, they get older where you can try and help them get them to help with the folding and all that. Well, then you have to ... You can't delegate them to underwear duty because then they start making fun of everybody's underwear and all those kind of things. They start fighting, and you start getting angry at that. But, just these little things every day, the laundry that has to be done.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
I remember the day I caught myself pulling a bowl out of my kitchen cabinet when I had company, and I ran my hand across the bowl for the crumble, the mess factor on it. You know when you hold a glass up and like, "Okay. It's good enough to go," and that bothered me because I liked neat, and clean, tidy. I talk about Cheerios between the toes, the fact that one night I went to get a glass of water for a thirsty child. I had seven Cheerios stuck between my toes walking across. I know. And someone said, "Why don't you wear house slippers?" Like I did that. That helped, you know? But just the-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: How about sticky phones?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You pick up the phone and there's honey on it or there's ...<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: What I find so amusing is that your ability to deal with crud, you know, with every child seems to just everything a little bit more and a little bit more.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Are you an orderly person?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I was an orderly person, but-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You just didn't like chaos of any sort.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: No, and I liked neat and tidy. I was an only child. I never had to share. I didn't get that a lot of times. Then, you bring kids into the mix and trying to keep ... And those seem insignificant, but from the first time you wake up and you walk down and you see the kitchen and you're like, "Oh, man. Look at this kitchen-"<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Julie, I just looked at the clock. We're out of time, and we got a lot more to talk about. I stopped you virtually in the middle of a sentence. Let's just come back tomorrow and let's take another run at it.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: It'd be great.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: We're going to pick up right here. I appreciate what you're doing. I think you're providing a real service for the moms that are out there. And anything that is a service for moms is a service for dads and children, too. So, thank you for writing the book. It is She's Gonna Blow!: Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger. Thanks for being with us. We'll talk next time.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Great being here.<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Those are some incredible insights into the frustrations that parents experience on a daily basis. And this is Family Talk, and you've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's interview with author Julie Barnhill. Now, if you could relate to what was being talked about today, you want to get your hands on a copy of the book by Julie Barnhill called She's Gonna Blow! It's a popular book that really speaks to parents who struggle with remaining in control through stressful circumstances. I just love that title. Find a link for that book on our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Thanks so much for tuning in today, and thanks for your prayers and faithful financial support of Family Talk. If you didn't already know, Family Talk is completely funded by you, our faithful listeners. Every tax-deductible donation you make has an eternal impact on the marriages and families that we are ministering to. You can learn how you can partner with us here in 2019 when you visit our website at drjamesdobson.org or by calling (877) 732-6825. Dr. Dobson and all of us here at Family Talk are so very grateful for your faithful generosity.<br />
<br />
Well, be sure to join us again tomorrow as we end our week with the conclusion of Dr. James Dobson's conversation with Julie Barnhill. They'll discuss how women's emotions build up under the surface and why every parent must afford themselves grace. I'm Roger Marsh, and I hope you'll be with us for that conversation right here next time on Family Talk. Have a blessed day, everyone.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.<br />
<br />
Dr. Tim Clinton: Hi, everyone. Dr. Tim Clinton here. When you think about your family and where they'll be when you're no longer living, are you worried? Are you confident? You hopeful? What kind of a legacy are you leaving for your children and their children right now? Here at Family Talk we're committed to helping you understand the legacy that you're leaving your family. Join us today at drjamesdobson.org. You're going to find helpful insights, tips, and advice from Dr. Dobson himself. And remember, your legacy matters.&nbsp;<br />
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Roger Marsh: Well, hello everyone and welcome to Family Talk, the radio broadcast division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh and I'm so glad you've joined us today. You're about to hear the conclusion of a conversation on the topic of handling anger as a mom. Dr. Dobson's guest on this classic broadcast was writer and speaker, Julie Barnhill, author of the book, She's Gonna Blow.&nbsp;<br />
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Now yesterday, Julie explained how exhaustion and loneliness can lead to sudden outbursts of rage and frustration. Julie also shared of the time when she threw her daughter onto a bed and the guilt that she felt afterwards.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I am so ashamed of who I am at times. I pray for mercy. God, please withhold your rightful anger for me. I was so angry at Kristen today. Now, I am literally sick to my stomach. Where does this fury come from? How on earth can a two year old make me so crazy? It's as if I have become someone else. I never thought I would become like this as a mom. Does this come from sin? Is it just me? Is it a lack of love? Oh God, is it possible I don't love my child? I want to be a mother who isn't like this. What a horrible, ugly mess. Where does this come from?<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Well that feeling of failure and regret haunts many parents following a breakdown with their kids. Well today, Julie Barnhill and Dr. James Dobson will continue discussing the causes of emotional buildup and how anger connects to depression. They'll also explore the need for self-assessment and why parents must forgive themselves for past mistakes. Here now is the conclusion of their challenging conversation, on this edition of Family Talk.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Julie has written a wonderful book, and in fact, I just love the title. It's She's Gonna Blow! Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger. It's already been immensely successful and for good reason. There are just lots of moms out there who have trouble with explosive anger, especially when their children are very young. Julie has been very candid about her own struggles and what she's learned. She's a popular speaker and a former school teacher. She and her husband, Rick, live in Illinois and they have three children. I was very involved in the interview with Julie and the time did get away from us, so it's really good to have her back.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
I have dealt with so many families over the years and this matter of anger is a pervasive problem. I talked about it in my first film series and that was 1979. Just imagine a young mother with little children just pushing her all day long, and these kids are making messes, and they definitely do not want to do what the mother is telling them to do. It is really very difficult, especially when you don't have the tools, or the know-how to deal with that frustration and anger.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Many mothers of small children are very young themselves. They're 20, 21, 22, 23 and don't, in some cases, have control of their own emotions and then they get pushed over the line and that's where child abuse comes from. So it's very, very important that we give those parents some tools, some understanding of how to deal, not only with the child's behavioral problems, but with their own emotions as well. Especially when you've got a strong-willed child, or an ADD child that is going to push you as far as possible. 'Cause she would give her life for those children, she would. She'd lay down her life for them, and yet she acts like that.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
If she's a Christian mom, she certainly knows that she shouldn't be responding that way. And so, there are just many women out there who find themselves kind of in this trap where they have overwhelming guilt but don't know how to deal with it.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Now, Julie said last time that her book is partly autobiographical. She's been there, and she's had to deal with it personally and that's why what she writes has such a ring of truth to it. Julie, you speak all over the country, you've been on national television repeatedly, and you're out there meeting people. You hear the affirmation that I'm talking about, don't you?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Absolutely. I probably have 1200 or 1500 emails on my computer at home from moms. I get, on average, two to three a week.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: In your book, you talk about styles of blowing up, if you will, related to a volcano-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes, little Mount Momma.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... and four types of volcanoes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Describe 'em very quickly.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Well, the first one, the Hawaiian, which is the Discovery Channel. The real pretty volcano that just slowly kind of-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Seethes.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: ... blubs over and it doesn't look that dangerous, but it slowly just takes over the landscape. It's black and crusty on the top and underneath is this volatile lava.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And that is nagging the children-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... and being upset at 'em all the time.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Kind of passive-aggressive behavior that we can have and, yeah, our negativity. And often, a mother maybe who's like that is the one who says, "I don't have a problem with anger. I'm just concerned about this or I'm just trying to do this."<br />
<br />
The second type, and these progressively more dramatic. The second is the Vulcanian and more solid pieces come out of a vulcanian eruption.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
The Stromboli, which is on the island of Stromboli, Italy and it just goes off the same time every day. I mean, tourists come and put their yard chairs out there and watch it, you just know. Same bat time, same bat channel. You know when you blowup, and your children know that. And a lot of times, I think we say, "Well, you know, it's just the way I am and there's nothing we can do about that."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
And then the final one, which is the one that we're all scared to death of and we don't want to talk about, and is really where I was when I threw Kristin that day, is the Pelean, which is the Mount St. Helens, when there's just utter destruction. We've read the stories of mothers who have, in one act of irrational anger, have harmed their children. Sometimes that has been fatal, that we've heard those and that terrifies to the core of our being as mothers.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Julie, we're talking to people who fall in all four of those categories now and they're glued to the radio because they find themselves there and they don't know what to do about it. They don't know where to start.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
First of all, what's going on? What's causing the buildup of lava, the magma as it's called, down underneath that's gonna blow?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I have found there's different pressures that we need to look at in that and one of those main ones, and you know this, Dr. Dobson, is the pressure of the past. This is what you don't know until you're there: how your childhood and all those things play into that.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
I shared earlier that I am adopted. I was adopted at age three or four, and for 27 years, I truly believed that adoption did not affect me adversely in any way. The family that adopted me, I was prized and cherished and just an only child. It was perfect, a princess-type thing.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
So, I had Kristin and I start feeling like I want to leave her. I want to flee from this and I didn't know where that came from, so I just pushed that down. I didn't even acknowledge that to myself. And then Ricky Neil was born, and when I was 27 years old, the phone rang one day in my house. It was my birth father. I do, to this day, do not know how he found my number, and boy, did that set off ... Oh gosh, that set off some things that I had no idea was inside of me.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: So there are experiences from the past that are down there that haven't been dealt with.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly, exactly and maybe divorce, you're a family of divorce. Or maybe you've experienced abuse as a child growing up, and you swear you're not gonna do that, or you think you've gotten that behind you. Those kids come in and just start kinda pushin' some buttons, and you find that coming in.<br />
<br />
The second pressure I find are what I call the pressures from within. And boy, what I want to say and as I was writing this book and as I was going through some counseling, the thing that really resonated with me that I sense the Lord wanted me to understand is how marvelously complex I am as a woman. I think sometimes, we fail to think about that. I ask mothers when I speak, I'll say, "How many times a day do you think you bend down, just bend from the knees? How many times a day do you just pick up a child, physically, the things that you're doing?" Hormonally how complex we are. Every day the level's different. And then you bring in the finances, and you bring in the relationship you're trying to keep with your husband and all of these things, and that pressure.<br />
<br />
And then, the third pressure would be the child, itself. I say, it's just three things, just three things: The things they say, the things they do, and the way that they are.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That's enough, right?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: It's no big deal. Yeah, exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: It's really strange within a Christian community that some diseases are okay to have and they're okay to be treated with medications, and other diseases are somehow un-Christian and somehow contradictory to what we believe. Depression is one of those things. "Christians shouldn't feel depressed." Well, the truth of the matter is, as you said, Julie, we are very complex human beings and if there are medications that help, as long as they're properly taken and properly supervised and not done to excess and that they're right for that circumstance, it is no more wrong to take that medication than it would if you had an infection and you were taking an antibiotic. It's really kinda silly to think this one's okay and that one's not. But I think the reason people stand and cheer is for that reason right there because you're saying that I needed that and somebody needed to tell me it was okay.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: That's exactly it. I've interviewed enough that sometimes people are like, "Oh, Julie, these stories, is it really hard to tell these stories?" And I said, "You know, God just gave me that gene where it's okay." I mean, I like to say what that woman has thought and is unable to say.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: You're being helpful to people because you've allowed people to see the person inside.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Right.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: And if you don't do that, you don't touch 'em at all.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: No, and what benefit are we and this will speak of the grace. I will say this to women, if we would just be grace-filled to one another. You can blame males and you can blame the culture and all that, but we hold within our grasp the ability to change this with women to women. And if would just be gracious ... Think about church, Dr. Dobson, when there's a baby in the back of the auditorium and crying and interrupting and you're not hearing the sermon. You're thinking, we have a perfectly good nursery, why don't they go put that kid in the nursery. We will turn and crane our necks to see that child and that mother knows every eye is on her. Also, there's that message, why don't you have that kid in the nursery, or if they're in here, why don't you make them behave? I just say, "Grace says, 'don't turn around. Don't look.'"&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: She's struggling enough as it is.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: She's struggling. Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: She hears it.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: She knows what's going on.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: She knows. She can see it.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Well, let's talk specifically to the woman out there who is so guilt-ridden today. In fact, to illustrate the situation that she's in and the way she feels, I have asked for a little short recording, a little clip, to be queued up for us today that was actually part of a Renewing the Heart Broadcast. This call could have come from a million women today, but here's one of 'em.<br />
<br />
Female caller: I have been very angry in the past 10 years. And just this week, God has shown me that he wants to use me and he wants to use my mouth, but he can't until I get rid of the anger.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I would like to have talked to her myself. I would like to have found out a little more about what her background is and why she is feeling the way she is. What would you say to her?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Boy, the first thing is, we all know that it's wrong. We don't need anybody preaching at us and telling us, we know that. The first thing, boy, is that grace, is that grace. The scripture verse that I have held onto all my years of mothering, 2 Timothy 2:13, "When we are faithless, he remains faithful; for he cannot deny Himself." He is faithful. He loves us.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
And Dr. Dobson, the reality is, is that he is crazy about us. God is crazy about us as women. Not just as a mother, not to be a good mom, not to be a great wife and a dynamic speaker and all those things-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: He loved us enough to die for us.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Yes, and he loves us and he is crazy about me. I tell mothers, and I would tell this mother, that same love that you have when you held that baby, the same way that you look forward to seeing that child when you've been away for just a few hours or a time; that is the same love times X, infinity and beyond, that God has for us.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Do you hear the condemnation in her voice?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, she knows it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Yeah, she knows it.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: She knows it.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: She knows what she's doing is not right, but I don't know that she feels that God has any understanding at all of her or what is going on inside of her.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And that he can use her, until I get fixed. I mean, that's kind of what I heard. When I get things fixed then he can use me. I have just found that, boy, he will use us right there. I tell moms, and I would tell her, one thing, you just choose the one thing that you want to do and if that's ... Sarcasm was a big thing for me and the way I spoke towards my children. I'd say, "Yeah, good job, Einstein." That was something I said a lot and I said that out loud and I said, "Lord, help me remove that from my speech pattern." And I worked on that one thing for weeks and weeks and weeks.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Would you agree that this woman needs to take to somebody?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, absolutely.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: She needs to talk to a pastor-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: And someone with wisdom. Exactly. Not-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... Or a counselor, somebody who really does understand what's going on here.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I don't think you know this, but I called twice into counseling.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Did you really? Is that right.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Right after my birth father called, I called. And here's the thing, I think it takes so much nerve to call, and then you think, "Okay, I need to get it all in within 45 seconds. What if they think I'm boring or this is stupid." That counselor, and I think he talked to me over an hour, and I have his name somewhere 'cause I record and journal, and I spoke with him. He simply gave me some hope.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
And then after Shirley, after you all aired a tape one time of Shirley's background with the alcoholism and her family, I called again and that counselor said, "You know, Julie, you are a survivor of alcoholic parents." And I never believed that since I never lived with them, but there are ramifications of that.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: What else do you recommend for that mother that's blowing, that's just not able to control it?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Well, I like to, first of all, that nothing is unforgivable. So to start there and to go in prayer and say, "God, you know how ugly it is, and I want forgiveness for this, and I want change for this, and give me a heart for my children."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Another thing, I like to talk to moms about: let it go. The power of three words, "let it go", 'cause that's grace summarized. There are schedules, that sometimes we blowin' it in at anger in the minivan, I'm telling you. And in the church parking lot on Sunday morning, it's just unreal what can go on. I say, "Choose the best, let go of the rest."&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Here's the thing though, we're all doing, what we're doing is usually all good things, but we really do have to choose the best thing. Because if I'm wiggin' out and I'm irritated and resenting my children because all I'm doing is chauffeuring them around and I'm losing my temper, what effect is that? This is what we did, we cut back and I homeschooled actually. I mean, talk about a dramatic thing, but I wanted to have a heart for my children again and I homeschooled.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
The first year was horrible, absolutely horrible. The second year was better, the third year was sublime. It was just wonderful and it gave me a tenderness and a love for my children. We have cut back on the extra activities. Guess what? If Joe Bob doesn't play soccer as a four year old, it's not gonna stunt his professional career. This isn't anything that you haven't had other people say and you haven't said, but it's kind of one of those "Hello". If that's part of the problem then we have to do that.<br />
<br />
I like to do proactive things that we can do with our children. One of the things I love to tell moms to do, ask them to do, is to play a game called, "I love you more than." Patrick, my youngest, he was really pretty irritated that he didn't have any stories in this book and he came to me as I was finishing up the manuscript 'cause I read it to the kids and made sure everything was okay to print. And he had his arms crossed and he said, "Mom, where are all my stories?" And I said, "Well, Patrick, by the time you came along, I kind of had this thing going a little bit better." And, he pouted and he looked at me and he goes, "Mom, I love you more than pigs in ice cream." And, then he just took off running. Patrick and I have this running dialog, I love you more than Pepsi, I love you more than chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I played the same game with my daughter-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Really.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... and it was at the end of every day. It was at night right before she went to sleep and it got wider and wider and wider-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... and the last thing was the first one to get to I love you more than the whole universe and there wasn't anything else after you said-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Trump that. Yeah, you can't do it.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Let's recap here what we've got so far. First of all, the spiritual help. You gotta deal with your relationship with the Lord, 'cause he's there, and he cares, and he will help. And prayer.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
The second is to deal with fatigue. I am absolutely convinced that the American way of life is responsible for the greatest portion of all this because when you're totally worn out, you have no reserve. It's like an army with no reserve unit and you fight on the front lines and then you collapse because there's nothing left, and you mentioned that.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
The third is medication, and there is a place for that, so you need a good physician who will talk you through this.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
The fourth is counseling. You didn't mention getting the husband involved in that counseling situation, but I think he needs to understand you. He needs to know in a little more detail than you shared at the time of what you were going through-&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Absolutely.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... because he can be a resource for you. If he's understanding and compassionate, so you might drag him along with. And in fact, he may be the cause of some of the anger or the depression, so you need to work through that.<br />
<br />
And fifth, the matter of understanding. We talked the first day about PMS. We talked about the complex chemistry of the body. It helps to understand what's going on and then preparing for it. Not dealing with big, heavy things at night. Shirley and I-<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: ... have an absolute policy. When we're worn out, it's 10 o'clock at night and something is really been bothering both of us, I will not talk about that till the morning. And so, in the morning, we can deal with it. At night, it's a lot harder. There's some tips like that of things that you can learn. Anything else you want to suggest?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: A part of that last one is to know your child-<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Absolutely.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: ... to know their personality. We study so many things, but do we study our children and to parent accordingly. You have said this, I've heard you say this, "You cannot parent every child the same way."<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: The same way.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Boy, we need to get that through our heads, and we interact differently with each child. It doesn't mean you love one more or love one less, it's just how you are with that individual child.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Julie, another very, very useful and practical and fun broadcast today. This is our second day. The name of the book is She's Gonna Blow! Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger, Julie Ann Barnhill. And a lot of people have endorsed her, recommended this book. You are available to speak around the country.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Absolutely, yes.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: That ought to wear you out. You'll be depressed again.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Oh, no.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: But you really have a sense of mission about this, don't you?<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: I do, I do and it energizes me. I just want women and fathers and foster care, grandparents, so many ... We didn't talk about that at all, but so many grandparents who are having to raise children, their grandchildren.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: Oh boy, that's a tough one.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: Exactly.<br />
<br />
Dr. Dobson: I really do wish we had time to talk about that today because there are many people out there in that situation. They thought they had their job done as parents and then they wind up raising yet another generation. But we're simply out of time, so, Julie, we're gonna have to save that topic for another day.<br />
<br />
I just want to say that I appreciate so much you taking the time to be our guest, but most of all, I value your heart and your candor in helping mothers and your own openness about your struggles in this area. That honestly is gonna be very helpful to many mothers today. Thank you, Julie.<br />
<br />
Julie Barnhill: It's been a pleasure.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Roger Marsh: Well, that is certainly an honest conversation on the topic of controlling your anger as a parent. After listening to today's broadcast, I hope that you realize that there are no perfect parents. Everyone struggles and messes up from time to time. You can learn from your mistakes and allow grace to remove the guilt that maybe plaguing your life though.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
And when you visit our Broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org, you'll find a link for Julie Barnhill's helpful book on this topic. It's titled, She's Gonna Blow. There, you can also listen to the first part of their conversation from yesterday's broadcast. You'll find all that and much more at drjamesdobson.org and then click onto the Broadcast page.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Are you tired of missing our broadcast while you're in the car or working around the house? Well, you can take advantage of our easy-to-use station finder feature and solve that problem once and for all. Go to drjamesdobson.org, then click the Family Talk radio station's button under the Broadcast menu. Once you're there, you'll see our new interactive map of radio affiliates and there are lots of them. Simply click on to your home state to see where and when our show will be airing near you. You can stop aimlessly scanning the radio hoping to find Dr. Dobson and Family Talk. Give yourself a break and use our helpful station finder feature when you go to drjamesdobson.org. You'll be glad you did.<br />
<br />
Well, that's all the time we have for this week of broadcasts here on Family talk. Join us Monday as we honor Sanctity of Human Life week with meaningful broadcasts on that topic that you will definitely appreciate. I hope you'll be with us next time, right here for more of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh, wishing you and yours a blessed weekend.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
Dr. Tim Clinton: Hi, this is Dr. Tim Clinton. Thanks for listening to Family Talk. You going through a tough time right now? Can't see your way out? You think there's no hope? We'd love to talk to you. I want you to know this, Dr. Dobson has been doing this for a long time and he really cares about you so much that we'd love to talk to you right now. You can actually call us, toll-free. Our number is 877-732-6825. You're gonna be encouraged, you're gonna be challenged, you're gonna find new hope. You know why? 'Cause God really does care about you. He loves you and Dr. Dobson cares about you too. Call us now, 877-732-6825.<br />"
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