A Compassionate Argument for ProLife: A Dr.'s Perspective - Part 2 (Transcript)

Dr. Dobson: You're listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.

Roger Marsh: When a woman faces an unplanned pregnancy, oftentimes the only remedy she is given is to have an abortion, but what kind of emotional, physical, and psychological damage does that one single act actually bring? On today's edition of Family Talk, Dr. Tim Clinton continues his conversation with Dr. William Lile, the Pro-Life Doc, on the long-term effects that abortion will have on a woman.

On today's program, we're going to talk about some issues that are for mature audiences only. So please use parental discretion as you continue listening to this program. Postpartum depression, shame, and guilt, and even worse can accompany this traumatic event in a woman's life. But the good news is, there is hope. Let's listen in now as Dr. William Lile and Dr. Tim Clinton continue their discussion on God's healing grace, and the promise of forgiveness that can cover even the most egregious sin, on this special edition of Family Talk.

Dr. Clinton: Dr. Lile, I want to ask you upfront here, what are some of the long-term effects of abortion on a woman?

Dr. Lile: There can be some medical complications, surgical complications. There's a condition called Asherman's syndrome where the lining of the uterus during the process of an abortion is removed to the point where it can never support a future pregnancy. There could be perforation, there can be infection, but the big problem is really going to be the emotional effect. There was a study that came out about a year ago and they looked at 737 women who had had either a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy in the first trimester. And they followed them and interviewed them.

One month after, either the ectopic pregnancy or the miscarriage, 29% of those women had clinically defined PTSD. 11% of those women had moderate to severe depression. But then they followed them even longer. Nine months later, 18% of those women still had clinically defined PTSD. And nine months later, 6% of those women still had moderate to severe depression. This is not healthcare, this is causing a health problem. And if women, when they've had a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy can have these kinds of effects where they had nothing to do with the loss of this child. Can you imagine if a study was done and it looked at when it was the mom herself who actually made the decision to cause the loss of that child, what would the effects of PTSD be on her? What were the effects of moderate to severe depression? How would this carry over to future children, future relationships in the rest of her life?

Dr. Clinton: Well, we all know that a miscarriage has a real impact on a woman, on a couple. Dr. Lile, you wouldn't say though, that having an abortion, the impact would be the same, say as miscarriage, right? There's a difference here between these two.

Dr. Lile: You know, my wife and I had four miscarriage. Nothing we did to cause them, nothing we could have done to prevent it, but it's that sense of loss. You go through a mourning period when you have that sense of loss, you knew that there was a life that was there inside. And I never had an abortion, but I do know what the loss was as the dad. So when you are looking at abortion and you're looking at miscarriage and you're looking at an ectopic pregnancy, the real difference is that the ectopic pregnancy and the miscarriage, you had nothing that you could've done to prevent that, nothing that you did that caused that, but abortion is the intentional taking of that life and essentially causes the miscarriage with the abortion pill.

Dr. Clinton: Dr. Lile, do you see young women, ladies in your office who are coming in for a second or third abortion?

Dr. Lile: Yeah. It's not unusual to see somebody who's had a second abortion or who has had a third abortion, and it's sad. And someday they will realize this was a gift from God. This was a blessing. This was someone who was created in their image. And maybe it was a surprise, but it was still a blessing from God. And this is the kind of thing that can really affect somebody's depression and anxiety in the future.

Dr. Clinton: Dr. Lile, I wanted ask you - I think this is important - is abortion a sin?

Dr. Lile: Yes, plain and simple, abortion is a sin, but is abortion as a sin able to be covered by the blood of Christ, can it be forgiven with the power of the blood of Christ? Absolutely. Salvation is available to whosoever and for whatever sin. Paul, before he had that encounter on the road to Damascus with Jesus, had been killing Christians. Was Paul able to be used of God? And was Paul able to be forgiven of those sins? Yes. And what did Paul say about his past? Paul said, "Forget about your past and press on to what's ahead." Whenever we think about our past sins, we think about maybe abortion, when we were involved in it, think of Paul. Paul said, "Forget about what lies behind and press on to what's in front." So forget about your past, it was in your past, it was forgiven, press on and press towards the future.

Dr. Clinton: I remember a few years back, Dr. Lile, working with a client and each week that we were meeting, she would at the end of the session, say something to me like this. "I have something I need to tell you, but if I tell you, you won't like me." And finally, the time came where she decided it was important to tell me, she started out this way, "Tim, in the middle of the night, all I hear are babies screaming." And she was married and had two children and was in a difficult marriage. And her husband was living away from her, she found out having an affair, came back, had a rendezvous weekend. She wound up getting pregnant. He's gone again. She's so many weeks along and she makes a decision to have an abortion. And she said, "Tim, I hear a baby screaming every night. Do you think God will forgive me?"

I'll never forget the moment Dr. Lile, we were there and she is weeping. And I said this, "Have you asked him to forgive you?" She said, "Every day." And then I said this to her, "He forgives you. You're forgiven." "Do you think so?" And she just cried and shook. She was just shaking. Bill, I know that there's a lot of debate out there, but if you look at it, a lot of women experience emotional deadening after an abortion. A lot of them really struggle with what some call post-abortion rage. Sometimes they suffered PTSD symptoms. Some can even feel suicidal. We've heard all kinds of stories about women after an abortion. Dr. Lile, what have you seen?

Dr. Lile: It's an event that can change somebodies life. God sent His Son to live a perfect life and die on the cross and be tortured. He knew what we were going to do. And yet God loved us enough that he sent His Son for what we were going to do. And when Jesus was on the cross and He bore all of our sins, He bore the sin of abortion. But because He did that and because He lived the perfect life, because He loved us so much, we can have forgiveness of that sin and then spend eternity in the presence of God. That's the message of the gospel.

Yes, we're going to talk about how abortion is a sin we must stand up and stop, but the message of the gospel, the message of forgiveness and the message that God has for all. God even loves abortionists. He sent His Son for everybody. So do I pray that abortionists find the error of their ways and seek out forgiveness in the Lord Jesus Christ? Yeah, because there's a verse that says, "There are six things that the Lord hates." And one of those things is "hands that shed innocent blood." There is nothing that defines hands that shed innocent blood more accurately than someone who's spent their career taking the life of a baby within the womb. So the gift of salvation and eternal life is available for all. Forget about what's behind and press towards what's ahead.

Dr. Clinton: Dr. Lile, what do you say to the woman and even men who've been down this road, and they want to move on, but they feel like again, it's so wrong. And they've not being able to walk through a lot of the emotional chaos that they've experienced, or maybe continue to experience. They would rather not talk about it. It's easier that way, but nevertheless, it pops up. It's there and they need that and they want that forgiveness. They are forgiven, they're just trying to get beyond that particular piece. Have you found some things that they might be able to do that might help out in this process of finding freedom and new life?

Dr. Lile: Get involved in the fight, be active in sharing the message of the gospel message, share the message of forgiveness, get involved in the pregnancy resource center. Nobody can better talk to somebody about the gift of life and about making good decisions than somebody who has already gone through it and has made a bad decision. And you've been uniquely equipped as somebody who's personally been involved in an abortion to help somebody out who is facing that decision, use that experience for the glory of God.

Dr. Clinton: I can't think of a better army of people than those who by the way, have been down this road, who had found the grace and forgiveness in Jesus Christ and who have decided to help be a point of light in this moment, to step into the life of that person or that couple who need wisdom in this hour. Speak to developing that kind of an army out there, a front line of defense in and through the local church and the role of the church in this hour.

Dr. Lile: There are all types of people with all types of past experiences within our churches. There are people who have done time, prison, jail. They are uniquely equipped to minister to those who are in that same situation. There are people who have been involved in drugs and alcohol and other sexual sins in their past. They are forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ and they are uniquely equipped to address that issue. The same with abortion, we have a past. And when Paul says, "forget about your past," it doesn't mean we can't use our past experiences for the glory of God now. There are abortionists who have seen the error of their ways, who are some of the most passionate pro-life people you will ever meet because they uniquely are equipped to deal with that.

So, the message of the gospel is pre-eminent, but then saving the lives of the pre-born, that were created in the image of God, has got to be a role, not only of us as individual believers, but as the church as well.

Dr. Clinton: We hear a lot about what's happening through CPCs, Crisis Pregnancy Centers. I think I saw recently where nine out of 10 women who actually view an ultrasound, they actually carry the baby to term.

Dr. Lile: Yeah. There's nothing more rewarding than helping a mom and see them as they carry the baby, develop the baby and then deliver the baby. And pregnancy centers by the thousands have been so instrumental in sharing the love of Jesus with these people, they will provide them with financial support. They'll provide them with food. They'll provide them with housing. It's an amazing ministry that has grown.

With the pregnancy centers, when they first started, it was the pregnancy test, that was what would get ladies to come into the centers. Then it was the ultrasound, then it was the 3D ultrasound. I think we are just entering into the next role of the pregnancy center, of abortion pill reversal, where yes, you made a mistake, but we have access. And we have the technology. We have the medical personnel that can actually help redeem the life of that baby and reverse that error that was made in the past. The best way to defend the pre-born for the general population is with science. If you showed that the pre-born is a patient than they are a person, and then they're going to be protected because they are a person. Legislation throughout the United States, some legislators have tried to defend and protect the pre-born, but there are groups that are trying to break that down.

Dr. Clinton: We are winning the fight. If you look at clinics being closed and more, through the years, but with the new administration, things are going to get a bit challenging. Dr. Lile, do you think with the new appointments to the Supreme Court, that there is a potential opportunity for Roe vs. Wade to be overturned?

Dr. Lile: I think that there is a great potential for that because of the fact that the patients in the womb are persons and that we can defend them because a patient is a person, no matter how small, with our current compliment of the Supreme Court. However, if we were to see one, two, three new appointees to the Supreme Court, and we go from nine to 12 to 13 packing the court. Where it's like, if my nine players on the baseball team can't win, no problem. I'll just put 15 players on the same field and we'll be able to cover the infield and the outfield. It's a big change. And that's where I think that the court would have trouble if we have additional justices placed that are like-minded with the Left.

Dr. Clinton: And with the massive funding of Planned Parenthood again, and probably the explosive use of the abortion pill, efforts like your abortion pill reversal, and more become so significant in this hour. Dr. Lile, how can people learn more about that pill and this process and the significance of it and the traction that it's gaining across the country?

Dr. Lile: Our website, and we'd love to have people partner with us through our website, it's a great educational resource. We have DVDs, we have videos that we have placed by the score and that website is prolifedoc.org. But there's also a great website that is called abortionpillreversal.com. And that's where you can link with a registered nurse who can walk you through the process. For those physicians and healthcare providers that are out there, partner with us, join our team, become somebody who can help reverse a bad decision, redeem these babies that have a 98% chance of going to death through basic pharmacology. You have been uniquely trained as a physician to do this, to save lives. That's the goal of all physicians, that's why we get into this, to save lives. This is a great way to perform kingdom service.

Dr. Clinton: We need individuals and we need churches to step into this moment, this hour. This coming Sunday, pro-life Sunday, Dr. Lile, what do you suggest people do? And what can they do, and in their church communities to help be beacons of light, champions for life in this hour?

Dr. Lile: I'm going to speak to the pastors right now. It is amazing to me how many pastors won't address the sin of abortion from the pulpit, won't address the forgiveness of this sin of abortion from their pulpits. Studies will show that between 21 and 24%, all the men and women in any congregation have been personally involved with an abortion. We have groups that talk about alcohol, groups that talk about theft and prison. Yet, if you have a 20 to 25% of your congregation has been personally involved with an abortion, we need to address that it's a sin, address that it can be forgiven within our past, but we also need to let our kids know what the science is and that we are created in the image of God from that moment of conception. And that abortion is wrong. If we just give our kids some basic training, it can end a discussion with non-like-minded peers, they can win that discussion. I don't just want them to win. I want them to annihilate the opposition. Annihilate them then pick them up and tell them about the love of Jesus. But we need to educate and prepare our teens, our young people about what abortion is, and that it is wrong because the influences that they get on a hourly basis, whether it's through YouTube or through social media or through the TV is a lot to compete against.

Dr. Clinton: And raising up a generation to stand boldly for life starts with our students, our kids, making sure that… and they're bold! They're not afraid to speak their mind out on social media and more, Dr. Lile.

Dr. Lile: They don't back down. This generation is a very visual generation when it comes to education. Where we might've read books, these kids always have their phones on them. They have whether it's YouTube or Instagram, they are a visual generation. Just using simple things like showing them a video of the baby's heart beating 26 days after conception, showing them videos of how we can do a blood transfusion, how we can do heart surgery, spine surgery, or remove tumors. Children will look at this and they'll say, "Oh my gosh, that is a patient there on the inside. That's a baby there on the inside. I thought it was just a blob of tissue." So using the visual resources and the communication that's available to this younger generation is what is going to reverse abortion in the United States. They're passionate, they're prepared and they are motivated.

Dr. Clinton: And also a sensitivity to 62 million abortions or so in this country alone, that's a lot. Well, over a hundred plus million parents have aborted children, many who suffer silently with the emotional pain and shame and guilt and more, who need ministered to and who, by the way, could become a massive army for life, knowing the forgiveness and grace of God, where they can go to a special place.

Dr. Lile: Just to visualize what 62 million people is, that is every man, woman, and child in the State of California, combined with every man, woman and child in the State of Florida. That is what we have lost here in the United States, and it's a spiritual battle. This is an attack against the image of God, but I have a bigger level of a concern. It's about the future of our nation. It's about the country that we're leaving to our children and to our grandchildren. There is no doubt that the nation of Israel is God's chosen people and God had a unique law for the children of Israel. But then when you read in Judges 3, and chapter four and chapter five and chapter six, as much as God loved the children of Israel, you also read that "Then the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord."

And as much as He loved them, He delivered them into the hands of their enemy. He delivered them into bondage and He strengthened their enemy. I do not want God to look at us as doing evil in the sight of the Lord. But when you have 62 million babies created in his image, that is no doubt evil in the sight of the Lord. So it's not only a battle for the babies within the womb. It's for the babies that are going to be within the womb. But I'm here to defend the country that I'm going to hand over to my kids, the country that I'm going to hand over to my grandkids.

Dr. Clinton: Edmund Burke once said, The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men," I'll add and women, "to do nothing." Dr. Lile, will you close us this way? Give us a word of challenge and encouragement.

Dr. Lile: Absolutely. We serve the almighty God. We serve the God who created the universe. And after he created all the stars, all the planets, all the galaxies, all the fish, all the mammals, all the oceans, on the last day, he said, and God said, "Let us make man in our image." So after all that amazing creation of the universe, he says, "All right, you all, step back. You think that was something amazing. I'm going to create man in our image." And that is you. That is me. That is every single person that has ever lived in has ever been conceived.

And he loved us enough that even though who knew we would fall, God sent His Son, He lived the perfect life. He gave His life for you and I up on the cross, and He was buried. He was dead. And yet God rose himself from the grave. And if we believe in that, we have that gift of eternal life. That is an amazing love that God has for all of us. So, our duty is to love our Lord, to serve our Lord, to be involved in kingdom service, use how you are unique so that we can serve His kingdom, share His gospel message and give the message of forgiveness to those that are here.

Dr. Clinton: Dr. Lile, I love the story of Dr. Dobson, how he was driving home from work on the LA, Los Angeles freeway. That day back in 1973, when he heard the awful verdict about Roe vs. Wade on the car radio, then he got home and his dad called him and his dad was crying because he knew the implications of that verdict.

And it was that day that Dr. Dobson knew that he had to take a stand and do something about this awful injustice and sin. Little did he know somewhat 40, 48 years later, Dr. Lile, he's still on the front lines, swinging away, a champion, a bold stalwart for life. And it's a pleasure by the way to join with you. He has so much respect for you and the work you're doing up there. And we stand together united for life in this hour and may God do a good work in this moment. And God lead us and be with us. And in, and through all this, we ask in the strong name of Jesus. Dr. Lile, thank you for joining us.

Dr. Lile: My pleasure, sir. Thank you very much.

Roger Marsh: Well, it certainly is an ominous anniversary coming up on January the 22nd, the 48th anniversary of the passage of Roe vs. Wade. And here on Family Talk, you've been listening to Dr. Tim Clinton and Dr. William Lile discuss how God's healing grace and the promise of forgiveness can cover even the most egregious sin like abortion. You're not alone, as you heard Dr. Clinton and Dr. Lile just share. There are resources and understanding people ready to help if you are facing an unplanned pregnancy right now. For more information, visit our online resource center at drjamesdobson.org, that's drjamesdobson.org. Or if you need to talk to somebody right away, you can call us at (877) 732-6825, that's (877) 732-6825.

I want to take this moment to thank Dr. Dobson for staying in the fight and leading the stand for righteousness ever since the Supreme Court rendered its wicked decision to legalize abortion on January 22nd, 1973. Also want to thank you as a Family Talk listener for remembering to keep us in your prayers and also consider us for financial support as well. Family Talk is completely listener supported. The lifeblood of this ministry are the gifts and prayers that you provide us with. You can give a gift online, by the way, when you go to drjamesdobson.org, that's Drjamesdobson.org, or you can give a gift over the phone when you call (877) 732-6825. That's (877) 732-6825. And if you missed part one of the broadcast that you were listening to today, be sure to go to drjamesdobson.org, you can listen to the program in our archives there.

Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for praying for this ministry and supporting us that way. I'm Roger Marsh. Join us again next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.

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