Roger Marsh: Hello everyone. You're listening to Family Talk. The listener supported division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh. Today, you're going to hear the conclusion of an important conversation featuring Max Davis and our own Dr. Tim Clinton, the two men will continue discussing their latest book, Take It Back: Reclaiming Biblical Manhood for the Sake of Marriage, Family and Culture. You may not know this, but in his culture and during his time on earth, Jesus was extremely even shockingly pro woman. The gospels are full of stories of Jesus interacting with and honoring women from his mother to his female followers, to those who were labeled sinners and rejected by society. There is absolutely nothing toxic about the masculinity that Jesus modeled. Well today, Dr. Clinton and Max Davis will be discussing what biblical masculinity is. And perhaps more importantly, what it isn't, they'll also give some practical advice for reclaiming biblical manhood, including repentance, taking responsibility and most important of all, knowing God. You won't want to miss a word of today's program. So let's listen in right now.
Dr Tim Clinton: Max, I want to talk to you about biblical masculinity. When we talk about what it means to be a man, the very first thing that comes out of your mouth is Tim, it's Jesus.
Max Davis: Just right.
Dr Tim Clinton: He's our role model. He's our model man. Max, what does that mean to you?
Max Davis: Jesus encompassed everything that speaks of biblical masculinity and what a true man is. And Jesus, he loved, he served, he washed his disciples feet. He wept, he loved and respected women. He never patronized women, but the culture of that time was very much against women. When he met the woman at the well and engaged her, his disciples and other people were pretty shocked because men didn't talk to women like that. But Jesus fully engaged her and treated her as a human being. And Paul says, husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church who gave himself up for it. If a husband truly loves his wife, he becomes a servant to her, but Jesus was a very masculine. He grew up as a carpenter. He had callouses on his fingers. He was a man's man. He had no problem grabbing a whip and driving the money changers out of the temple.
Max Davis: Can you just picture that for a minute? I mean, this is how these men made a living and it was crowded. There was a multitude in there and he flips over these tables. He grabs a whip and he drives them out. You talk about standing up as a man. Jesus knew how to stand up as a man, but he also knew how to lay down his life. So if we wanted to see what it truly means to be a man, biblical man, we need to look at Jesus because he encompassed all aspects of it.
Dr Tim Clinton: Max, when a lot of people talk about toxic masculinity, I think their mind goes quickly to an abuse culture, where men have hurt and violated women, childhood sexual abuse through to domestic violence and more. And Max, Jesus, he didn't have a hatred of women. He loved women. As a model man, you were right. He went counter culture and a culture that didn't honor women, he did. And Jesus had a love and respect for his mother. Remember at the cross you saw it pour out. Max, when I think of Jesus, there's a tenderness to Jesus, you know that you're right. He was strong, but yes, he wept at the grave of Lazarus. The scripture say he is touched with the feelings of our infirmity. He knows what it means to be broken. And by the way, to be challenged by or pushed by sin yet he was without sin. Max, there's so much there. There's so much freedom in pressing into and becoming a man after God's own heart. Isn't it?
Max Davis: There is. And if a culture sees men like that, you talked about making a difference. A man that models Jesus makes a difference, in his family. And that's what it's all about and we have permission to do that, but it's going to take a stand because the culture wants you out.
Dr Tim Clinton: Max the scripture says that the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth seeking a man whose heart is toward him. Isn't it interesting that God is seeking or searching for a man? He's still doing that today. Isn't he?
Max Davis: He is. So Tim, I remember when God was looking for the next King of Israel and He sent Samuel and he goes through all of Jesse's sons, none of them. And he goes, what? Don't you have one more? And he says, yes, it's David, but you don't want to mess with him. He's out in the Shepherd's field tending sheep. And Samuel says, yeah, Hey, I want to go. So Samuel goes out there and he anoints David and everybody's shocked. And Samuel says, you know what? I'm not looking at his outward stature. I'm not looking at how big he is or how tough he is. I'm looking for a man after God's own heart. You talk about ordinary man. You don't get any more ordinary than David out in the field, but yet, you know what happens? It says, when Samuel anointed him, it says the spirit of the Lord came on him. And when the spirit of the Lord comes upon a man, it's amazing what can happen. He can change a culture.
Dr Tim Clinton: Listen to what David wrote. If your Lord should mark iniquities, who could stand? And then he answered it this way. But with you, there is forgiveness that you may be feared and on down, David wrote these words, Max, the Lord takes pleasure in them that fear him and those that hope in his mercy.
Max Davis: I love that scripture, it's one of my favorite scriptures. And I love this scripture in Acts where it says that David, when he served God's purpose in his generation, he fell asleep. Now think about that. He made amazing mistakes and sins. He committed adultery, but yet God still redeemed him and used him to the point where he completed his purpose in David.
Dr Tim Clinton: I think it's profound about David, Max, is when he was confronted by Nathan, David didn't run away and he penned Psalm 51. He went straight to God.
Max Davis: He was very repentant and he knew that he was guilty. As men we don't need to deny what we've done, deny our mistakes. We need to own them and go to God and let him cleanse us and rebuild us into the men that he wants us to be.
Dr Tim Clinton: Max, when David has his final basic words with his son, Solomon, he is speaking and there's a lot of things that he could have said to him. But one of the lines he said to Solomon was this, "Son basically show yourself a man" I don't think Max, he was talking about be super strong. Don't focus on all your talents and your gifts. I think he was saying something different, Max. I believe he was focused on his character.
Max Davis: That's right. And you know what's interesting about that is David could have said any number of things, you think about that you're on your death bed, you know you're about to die. So these are the last words you're going to give to your son who's going to take over your kingdom by the way. So he's given him instructions and his first words are be strong and be a man. What does that tell you about the importance of being a man? He doesn't leave it there. He goes on and he tells Solomon pretty much what it means to be a man. And it basically boils down to listen to God, seek God and do it his way. And biblical masculinity is about that right there. Letting God direct us. I know I keep harping on that, but it's so important. It's all about intimacy with God.
Max Davis: It's all about being connected with God for true biblical masculinity. If you're not, you're just a man in the flesh and that produces toxic behavior. Look, Jesus was the ultimate man. When you become born again, you get the spirit, the Holy spirit, which is the spirit of Jesus in you.
Dr Tim Clinton: Max, when I was a boy, we had a stripping cut in Central Pennsylvania. They had open pit mining and often times they didn't backfill the holes back in those days. And so they would fill up with water and we would go fishing in them. And there was this stripping cut hole just below our house. And you had to go walk through the buckwheat field to get down to it. So we have a path through the buckwheat field. I know the farmer hated this sport, but we had this path and all the kids in the neighborhood would go down to the stripping cut and we'd fish for chubbs, actually horny chubs is what they were. Man if you've got a big one that was like a prize. But anyway, up on the backside of the stripping cut Max was a small path. And at that end of the stripping cut, it was really deep.
Dr Tim Clinton: And we were petrified to go on that upper side. But if you wanted to catch the big chubs, they were on that backside. Max, I'll never forget this day. We're down there fishing. And one of the boys from our neighborhood, he was older than me. Red headed kid actually somehow wound up in the water and Max right before our eyes, we're just boys. We're small boys. Back in those days, no supervision. We're out there doing our own thing. Max, this boy starts drowning in front of us. I can still see him. He was thrashing and screaming. And when we realized that he was in trouble, Max, we all started screaming and we're doing everything we can try and get something out to him, Max. And we're just watching him and he's gasping for air. Literally out of nowhere, one of the older boys in town showed up, coming out of that buckwheat field, heard us screaming, jumped in, grabbed him by his red hair and pulled him over to the shore, got him up on the bank.
Dr Tim Clinton: As he saved his life. I mean, we were crying and screaming and celebrating all the same time. And when I think about our subject of men, just for a moment, Max, in a lot of ways, men are drowning. We're drowning in a society, in a culture that hates men. Yet there's such a fervent need for masculinity, for men to step up and into this moment to be who and what God wants them to be in this hour. And there are a lot of women who are praying earnestly right now for the man in her life saying, God do a work.
Max Davis: I think men want permission to get back in the fight and to embrace who they are as men and to embrace masculinity. Because right now you're a little timid. Look, go to any university and stand on a table and shout. I'm a man. I believe in biblical masculinity and watch what happens. You're going to get thrown off the campus.
Dr Tim Clinton: But Max that's because there's a confusion between what masculinity is, being a man and toxic behavior and what they want to do to wipe men out. They want to throw them together and say, Hey, men are bad. We need to quote reprogram you. That's what we need to do. So we want to shame you. We want to silence you. We want to put a stigma on you and Max, in a lot of ways, that's what's happened in culture. They are succeeding at that.
Max Davis: That's right, but it's okay. You talked about me playing football in Old Miss. I got a great story for you. It illustrates two things. It illustrates the power of a dad and it illustrates the permission to get back in the fight. But you've talked about everybody hates a quitter. I want you to get this in your mind. I had a full scholarship to Old Miss. And when I was a freshman, I got there and it was like being in the military. Okay. And I was so homesick. We were getting up at four in the morning and we had three a day practices and it was just horrible. And I felt like I was not getting treated like I should. Plus I was homesick. Just all kinds of emotions. Well, one morning at about four in the morning, I decided I was going to quit the team.
Max Davis: So I packed up all of my belongings in my car. And I drove from Oxford, Mississippi five hours away because I knew I couldn't go home because I knew how disappointed my father was going to be. We'd spent 17 years preparing for football and all of a sudden I quit the team. So my first inclination wasn't that I quit the team, but how disappointed my dad was going to be in me. But anyway, finally, when I came to my senses, I realized there's no other place I can go except home. So I'd drive home, six hours to Baton Rouge, Louisiana and I get to our street and I see our house. And I see the light on in the house. And I drive around the block four or five times trying to get courage to go into the house.
Max Davis: And finally about 10 o'clock at night, I knock on the door and my mom opens the door and she just stares at me. Because I'm supposed to be at Old Miss playing football. And here I'm at home. I remember she just said, Jimmy, your son has... She didn't know what to say. So finally he sit in as the recliner and I go and I just fall on my knees, bawling like a baby because I knew how much I had disappointed my dad. My dad could have shamed me. He could have said, you stupid you just blew a whole scholarship. You know what he did. He looked at me and he said, why don't you go to bed and get some sleep? And I'll see you in the morning. The next morning, I wake up to the smell of bacon, biscuits and gravy, this amazing home cooked meal.
Max Davis: And we sit at the table, there was no condemnation at all. And my daddy looked at me and he goes, there's only one thing we can do. I said, what's that Daddy? He said we have to go back and ask coach Sloan to take you back. And I'm like, I can't go back. And he's like, Oh yes, we can go back. And you know my daddy got in the car with me, my car that he bought me by the way. And he drove six hours North, Oxford, Mississippi with me in my car and he never condemned me, never put me down. He got in the car with me and he supported me and he took me back. And finally we drive up to the coaches offices, and I'm in the parking lot in the car and I'm terrified.
Max Davis: And my dad goes, okay, this is something you have to do. You have to go in there and ask him to take you back. And he says, but I'll be right here. I'll wait for you. And I went in and I asked coach Sloan, if he'd take me back. And he said, yes, I will. And he did. And he took me back. I finished my four years. I played ball. It was great. But here's the deal, you know what my dad did. This was back in the early eighties. He hitchhiked home. It's just such an amazing story of how my father came alongside me at my roughest moment and engage with me to go back and in a sense, take it back.
Dr Tim Clinton: What a lesson Max.
Max Davis: It's an incredible story. And that's what God wants us to do, but we need God with us. We can't do it on our own.
Dr Tim Clinton: And you know, at the end of the day here, it's because men really matter, dads like that teach lessons.
Max Davis: My dad wouldn't have done that. If he wouldn't have been there, I would have quit and now tell me where my life would have been.
Dr Tim Clinton: Because men matter, and I believe this Max, anything that smacks of righteousness, anything that smacks of beauty before God, anything that matters all hell will be against it. And I think that's why there's this war against men. Because if we can take men out, we can do great damage to the family, to the cause of Christ and so much more. Max, there is a battle going on. There's a raging war that's happening out there coming against men, wanting men to believe that they don't matter, wanting men to relish in sin, wanting men to stay down and not get back up. Max, what do you say to those men who are wrestling in their heart and soul?
Max Davis: I say that they need to get up and fight. It's clear. The research is that how much a man matters. Men are the difference makers in the culture. You take man out of the picture, society crumbles. You know, we're not saying that women aren't important. Women need to embrace who they are biblically, but men need to embrace who they are. I mean, just look at the prison system, it's like 90% of the prisoners are fatherless. It's just incredible. Society was built by men who were masculine.
Dr Tim Clinton: Max, a lot of what we do in the book, Take It Back: Reclaiming Biblical Masculinity. As we looked at the heart and life of David, along with other characters and some modern day people like George Foreman, Tim Tebow and others. But Max, I want to go back to David and what was inside of David, go back to that scene where he's bringing lunch to his brothers and he says these words "is there not a cause what in the world? God's on our side" Max, describe that moment.
Max Davis: We'll tell them about ordinary man again, doing extra ordinary things when the spirit of the Lord is on them. So David is delivering lunch to his brothers and warrior friends. These are guys that David grew up idolizing, and here he is just a shepherd boy and he's delivering lunch. And this giant Goliath comes out and he's degrading and insulting God. And David's like, what's going on here? None of his warrior friends step up, they're all just cowering in fear. But something rises up in David and I believe it's the Holy Spirit, the anointing, something rises up in David. And he goes, is there a cause? Is somebody going to do something? And David, this lowly shepherd boy steps up and says, look, I'm going to do it. And of course everybody laughs at him. They think he's nuts.
Max Davis: And David is, let me add this uncircumcised Philistine, I've got the power of God on me. David says, you come to me with a sword and a shield and a spear. I come to you in the name of the Lord and he says, look, I'm going to cut your head off and I'm going to feed it to the birds. I mean, David talks smack to Goliath. I mean, he was a man. He was not afraid to stand up and be masculine at that particular moment. And God took over and did an amazing thing because he was willing to stand up. He had come to know God in the wilderness times when he killed a lion, he killed a bear. When he worshiped God in the wilderness times, it prepared him for that moment to step up. And I believe men, if they prepare themselves in their own wilderness, they will be ready to step into their moment when it happens. But a lot of men, they don't even know God, they're not seeking God in their wilderness.
Dr Tim Clinton: Max, are you encouraged by what you see out there across the country, in the hearts of men? Do you see a stirring?
Max Davis: Yes, absolutely. I mean, men are tired of being pushed down. They're tired of being told they don't matter. They're tired of being feminized and made to look like idiots and made to look like the buffoons, which is a lie and women too. When I talk about this book, Take It Back to women, they get so excited. A lot of times they're more excited than the men. They're like, man, this is what I'm waiting for. I want a man to stand up. I want my man to stand up. I want my man to make a difference in my life.
Dr Tim Clinton: Can you imagine what it would be like if we had an army of men who decided to reclaim biblical masculinity to live as Jesus did before those they love and the greater world community to restore the heart and strength of being a man, what would happen, Max? And to those who are out there, maybe what God's saying, he's saying it's time. It's time to get some fight back in you. It's time to get some bounce back in you. It's time to get some fire back in you. It's time to fight for your sons, your daughters, your wives, your homes, and to stand for what matters. It's time. Maybe the Lord is beginning. Max, I know you'll love this to restore his majesty in and through the hearts of men. May it be so. Max, a closing thought from you?
Max Davis: Well, I think it is happening. It's not going to happen. It is happening. Men are rising up all over. You see it at your night conferences. And God has always had a people and God will always have men that are going to stand up. Men that are going to take it back. But you need to ask yourself if you're a man out there, you need to ask yourself, am I going to be in that number? Am I going to have the guts to stand up and get back in the fight? That's the question you need to ask.
Dr Tim Clinton: There's a band of brothers coming together.
Max Davis: Right.
Dr Tim Clinton: May the majesty of the Lord be restored. Max, great having you. Thank you for joining us here on Family Talk.
Max Davis: Good to be here.
Roger Marsh: What an exciting time to be a follower of Christ, Ephesians 6:10 and 11 tell us finally be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power, put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. God made men for a special purpose to be difference makers and to be manly leaders here on earth. I hope that today's broadcast has stirred you up and inspired you to learn more about what it really means to be a man of God. Now, if you want to learn more about Max Davis, Dr. Tim Clinton and their book, Take It Back. Or if you'd like to request a CD copy of today's program, coupled with yesterday's broadcast, go to the broadcast page on our website @drjamesdobson.org.
Roger Marsh: If it's easier, just give us a call. We're available 24-7 to answer your questions about Family Talk, to pray with you and maybe even make a suggestion about a resource or two to help you grow stronger in your Christian walk. Our number is (877) 732-6825. Well, we appreciate you tuning in and listening to Family Talk today and we hope you'll join us again next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh, God's blessings to you and your family.
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