Roger Marsh: Well, welcome to Family Talk, the listener-supported broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, thanking you so much for making us a part of your day. You're about to hear the impactful conclusion of Dr. Tim Clinton's conversation with pastor and author Dr. Erwin Lutzer. They'll continue to discuss Dr. Lutzer's new book entitled We Will Not Be Silenced: Responding Courageously to Our Culture's Assault on Christianity. Erwin Lutzer is pastor emeritus of the Moody Church in Chicago, Illinois, where he's served as senior pastor for 36 years. He's a graduate of Winnipeg Bible College, Dallas Theological Seminary, and Loyola University. You've also heard Dr. Lutzer as the featured speaker on the Moody Church Media podcast, Running to Win. He's perhaps best known for his books, One Minute After You Die, When a Nation Forgets God, and the Christian Bookseller Gold Medallion Award Winner, Hitler's Cross. Let's listen now to part two of pastor Erwin Lutzer's eyeopening and thought-provoking conversation with Dr. Tim Clinton here on Family Talk.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Dr. Lutzer, it's been a delight to have you on the broadcast and I can't wait to get into our content for today's program, but as we get started, Dr. Lutzer, I just want to reset the deck. You really believe with all your heart that we're trending in a direction that's very, very concerning and Christians need to wake up, we need to get our proverbial heads out of the sand and stand up and be bold in this hour, to be courageous is a good word. Dr. Lutzer, I remember being with Dr. Dobson years ago and he was looking around the table at a number of religious leaders, and I was delighted to be seated at the table, just listening, and I remember him with tears in his eye begin to say, "We need to pray that the church would awaken and take her rightful place." He said, "Until then, para-church organizations have to stand in the gap, but the real power is in the church of Jesus Christ." Where is the church in your mindset here, Dr. Lutzer, as we get started today, and how important is she in this hour?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: First of all, I don't think that most church members and most pastors know how serious our situation is. The second thing that we have to do is to realize also that God has given us resources. It's not as if Jesus Christ has abandoned His church today. I wrote the book that we're talking about, We Will Not Be Silenced, and I say in it that I did not really write it to reclaim the culture. That may no longer be possible. I wrote it to reclaim the church because what I want us to recognize is it is not necessary for us to be successful. It is necessary for us to be faithful.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Now, Tim, I've been a pastor for many years, and so I understand the dilemma. On the one hand, we want to be loving and welcoming. We don't want to put up any unnecessary barriers to the gospel, I get that, so what happens, though, is you have these huge cultural streams that are taking place in our country, and many pastors are totally ignoring them, and I say that it's time creatively to speak about these matters with sensitivity, recognizing that there is diversity of opinion in our congregation, but nonetheless, helping people to see how serious the threat is, and then asking this question: What can I do in order to respond to this situation? Everyone will answer that question differently. The mother who's at home with children, she'll answer that question differently than the businessman who's asked to take diversity training and to violate his conscience by signing a document confessing how sinful it was that he was born with the wrong skin color, so everybody's going to have to ask themselves, "What does faithfulness mean to me in a nation that has lost its way?"
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yesterday, we talked about these trends to influence culture, these horrific trends. Number one, rewrite the past to control the future. Number two, use diversity to divide and destroy. Number three, freedom of speech for me, but not for thee. Dr. Lutzer, you continue in your work about the significance of propaganda. In other words, calling what's going on by another name. It's that piece where evil becomes good, almost, in our minds.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Tim, since you quote that verse of scripture, it has two parts. For the radical left, it is not enough to take what is evil and call it good, that's only half the picture. The other half is to take what is good and call it evil. The best way to do that is through propaganda. In my book, I talk about how the radical left changed America's perception of homosexuality, and they lay it out and they say, "We learned from Hitler how to do propaganda." I'm not calling them Nazis, by the way. I don't think we should call anybody that, because that was an entirely different era and I'm not laying that label on anyone. But since they quote Hitler, I'll quote him also. Hitler said that with the right use of propaganda, you can make heaven appear like hell and hell appear like heaven.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: How do you go about it? You vilify anyone who doesn't agree with you and you have to arsenals that are very important to you. The first arsenal is hate. Hitler said it was very important for the nation to hate. He said that hate is much stronger than simply dislike, so you'll have a group that you're going to hate. In his day, of course, it was the Jews. In our day, it seems as if it's the conservative, all right, so what you have is somebody to hate. The other thing that you have to do is to make sure that people fear stepping out of line, so you give unreasonable punishment to those who step out of line so that everybody has to be in lockstep.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Now, there is a third aspect, and maybe this is what you were alluding to, even in your question, and that is the use of language. Evil can be camouflaged under some very beautiful-sounding phrases. For example, Hitler called the starving of children "putting them on a low-calorie diet." He spoke about killing the Jews as "cleansing the land." In other words, what you do is you give it a different name.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Let's apply this to our culture. The killing of preborn infants, no politician has ever said, that I know of, "I believe in a mother's right to kill her preborn infant." They talk about healthcare, my body, a choice. In fact, many of the politicians never finished the sentence. They say, "I believe in a woman's right to choose." Choose what? Nobody wants to finish the sentence. What you do is you take and you use language and that language is used to cover evil.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: But also, I point out gaslighting is taking place in our culture. That was a new term I had to study where you actually make people think that they might be insane, as if they live in a different reality, because you've created a new reality for them, which, of course, is totally illusionary, but you give it the perception that it is the real deal and people don't know where to turn.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: The power of language, the power of pronouns, where people are allowed to choose their pronoun, all of that is part of a propaganda effort to advance a certain agenda and we need to be able to respond to that and we need to see it for what it is, and so propaganda is very important. Remember the words of Churchill: "The desire to believe something is often more powerful than rational arguments." That's why it is so often when you talk to people, rationality plays no part in their convictions because the desire to believe something is more powerful than reason or facts.
Dr. Tim Clinton: It's just amazing to me, even not long ago, Nancy Pelosi rewrote the pronoun issue in the halls of Congress, which leads us to the next point, I think, that we need to discuss out of your book, and that is the sexualization of children. Dr. Lutzer, this is a big issue. Well, you know we're very pro-family here. That's why we exist. Hitler said these words: "He alone who controls the youth controls the future." Tell us how significant this is right now in our modern-day culture, this movement of sexualizing our children.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: The average couple no longer raises their children. Even Christians don't raise their children. The cell phone does. The cell phone in your teenager's hand will do more to inform his or her view of reality than an hour of church and an hour of Bible study and people have to understand that. I remember a woman saying to me, "I didn't realize that when I gave my 13-year-old teenager a cell phone, I might as well given her her first shot of heroin." We have to recognize that technology is instantly addictive, and oftentimes, Christian parents totally overlooked that and they say, "Well, everybody does it," and they don't understand that sometimes they may have to take some very radical steps in order to control what their children are seeing.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Now, back to the issue of the sexualization of children. You know this, Tim, as well as I do, perhaps better than I do, that today, some of our schools have a curriculum that is basically pornographic. It encourages children to have various forms of sexual experiences, it confuses them, and because teenagers have a tendency to be confused in the process of growing up, anyway, they begin to think, "Oh, I'm transgender," and then what they expect to do is to have others support that. We have a 13-year-old grandson and he's in a school where someone says, "I'm transgender," and everyone is supposed to support that child, and if not, you are to be shamed, because after all, he has a right to say that he's transgender.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Now, this can lead to some very crazy beliefs. As a matter of fact, in the same town, there was a young teenager who said, "I'm a fuzzy." Somebody said, "What's a fuzzy?" She said, "Well, actually, in my heart, I'm a cat." Okay, I'll respect that. In your heart, you are a cat. This is absolute absurdity, but Tim, hear me when I say we're living in an age when absurdity no longer has any argument against anything. In other words, you can believe the absurd. Orwell called it "newspeak."
Dr. Tim Clinton: Dr. Lutzer, then what happens is if you have beliefs that are contrary to this way of life, this indoctrination that seems to be sweeping our country, then you're not only marginalized, you're demonized for not making someone feel safe, not honoring what they believe, and then in addition, you'll get to a place where you'll see criminalization if you are contrary to what they believe and what they want in this culture.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Absolutely. I think that we are on our way to that. It's very scary to think that that is happening in America, but in some countries, it is already a part of what is taking place. Even if it falls short of criminalization, people are intimidated. There's a lot of self-censoring going on because we don't want to stick our necks out there and say, "This is wrong and I believe this," so that's what's happening. But in the chapter we're talking about, if we can just finish it very quickly, what's coming down the pike. Now, Tim, I know that you get around a lot, but I want to ask you a question. It's time for me to ask you a question. Do you know what a throuple is?
Dr. Tim Clinton: I don't know what a throuple is.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Well, you had better. I read an article saying that throuples are beginning to come to evangelical churches. A throuple is a marriage where there are three people. It could be two men and a woman or a woman and two men, whatever arrangement, it's the throuple. I remember listening to a woman giving her testimony who was in the lesbian movement and she said something I want your listeners to never forget. She said, "Without God in my life, I could not say no to anything," and that's why it is today articles are actually being written justifying pedophilia because once you give yourself over to evil without restraints, there is no logical place to stop, and I say to the parents out there, you had better be careful what your children are learning in school. You'd better stay on top of this because God is going to hold you responsible and it's very dangerous to take lambs and throw them amidst wolves.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Dr. Lutzer, in your book, you share about the difference between capitalism and socialism. Capitalism is the disease, really, in this mindset and socialism is the cure. Can you help us understand that?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: First of all, let me say that have you ever noticed that socialists always talk about how to divide the wealth? They never talk about how to create wealth because socialism does not create wealth. It's like you have a pie and you want to divide that pie up perfectly so everybody gets the same size. Well, the fact is when the pie is over, there are no more pies. The only thing that you can do is to have the government print more money to make up for the fact that the pies are gone.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: In about the mid-'80s, Rebecca and I were in Russia. That was, of course, before the fall of the wall, and we noted that the doctors in some of the hospitals were paid essentially the same amount as the workers who worked in the hospital having other jobs, because after all, they were having income equality. Is it any wonder that there was a real lack of doctors in the hospital?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: And so what you have today is the idea that somehow socialism is going to cure everything. If I might quote Winston Churchill again, Churchill said this: "The great vice of capitalism is the unequal distribution of blessings and the great virtue of socialism is the equal distribution of misery." No one has said it better. What's the problem with socialism? Well, Margaret Thatcher said "It is a problem because pretty soon, you run out of other people's money." Now, I could say a lot more, all that is in my book, but I have to end that particular topic by saying this to you, Tim: Have you ever wondered why it is that mice die in mousetraps? It's because they don't understand why the cheese is free.
Dr. Tim Clinton: That gets your attention right there. That makes perfect sense. Dr. Lutzer, we're running short on time. I've got to ask you a little bit about Islam because you addressed this. You usually see in this kind of a movement a joining of the hands, if you will, with Islam. Why is that and what's the outcome?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Well, here's what happened: The radical left is joining with radical Islam to destroy both capitalism and Christianity in America. They are two very different world views, but for now, they are allies in the same war. As you know, in the military, it is said, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Now, the reason I wrote that chapter is to show to people that the ACLU is very strong in its belief about the separation of church and state, but it has no problem with the lack of separation of mosque and state. There are schools in America, and I list them there, where Islam is being taught. Now, why is all that happening? The destruction of Christianity and the destruction of capitalism. Now, of course, most Muslims who live here are friendly, they want to become a part of the American dream, and we should in no way paint them with a big brush, but unfortunately, the radicals oftentimes have a lot of authority and they sway an awful lot of minds, so we have to be aware of that even as we move forward.
Dr. Tim Clinton: It's just unbelievable how this is coming to fruition in our culture. Toward the end of your book, you talk about what they want to accomplish is the vilification of individuals. You referenced Saul Alinsky's Rule for Radicals. I think it was number 13: Choose a target, personalize it, and then hammer them. No one, Dr. Lutzer, likes being called a racist, that you're hateful, you're bigoted, homophobic, and more. Boy, is this ever an issue in our culture right now?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: In that chapter, if I might tell the story of a church that I'm personally acquainted with in Missouri, the pastor preached a message on Genesis 1:27 that there are only two genders. It was very compassionate toward those who struggled with gender identity issues and the rest, but the next day, they were vilified. They were vilified in the news. They were on the front page of the newspaper. That's where the issue arises. Are churches going to stand, or are they going to fall with the culture? Students at the university in this town said, "Oh, we don't know if we feel safe in a town where there is a church that teaches this." That's the context in which we are going to have to minister today. I want to encourage pastors to say, "Preach those messages, do it lovingly, but stand on the truth."
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Yes, you will be vilified, and of course, social media has contributed hugely to this, where arguments are oftentimes solved by the person with the loudest voice, and everyone is enraged about something. What we need to do is to lower our voices as Christians. We should not shout, but we have to speak. We should not be shamed into silence, and when we are receiving a lot of criticism, it's a badge of honor. Jesus said, "Blessed are you if men revile you and persecute you and say all manner of evil against you falsely for my name's sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad." I have studied a bit of church history. This whole idea of freedom of religion that we have in America is an anomaly. For most of the centuries, the church did not have freedom of religion, and I want your listeners to understand this: It is not necessary to have freedom of religion in order to be faithful. Just ask the martyrs.
Dr. Tim Clinton: George Orwell: "The further a society dress from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." Dr. Lutzer, I want to close this way, by maybe asking you, what do you think Jesus might say to all of us in this moment?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Well, in the last chapter of my book, I reference the words of Jesus Christ to the church at Sardis: "Strengthen what remains," and I go through and I say what I think Jesus might say to the church today. I don't speak on His behalf, I don't claim to have some special revelation, but I outline what I think Jesus would say if He were writing us a letter.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: But here's the encouraging word I want to give to you today, Tim: When you read this letter, you discover that Jesus says, "You think that you're alive, but you're dead," and then a few verses later, Jesus said, "But there's still some people among you who walk in white and they are worthy. They will walk with me," so I say to all who are listening, be among those who walk in white and be worthy. Don't be contaminated by the culture, but stand against the culture. Pray, seek God, and be faithful, and remember, it is not necessary for us to win, but it is necessary for us to be faithful to the very end. That's what we need to determine: What does God want us to do today? Taking the cross into the world is our privilege.
Dr. Tim Clinton: I want to close by, first of all, thanking you, Dr. Lutzer. His book is called We Will Not Be Silenced: Responding Courageously to Our Culture's Assault on Christianity. Let me read some words from Dr. Lutzer in closing: "I want to inspire us to have the courage to walk toward the fire and not run away from the flames. God has brought us to this cultural moment and our future cannot be taken for granted. As has been said in a time of universal deception, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." Dr. Lutzer, we tip the hat to you. Thank you for your faithfulness, your pastoral heart, your ministry, and your bold stand for truth. On behalf of Dr. Dobson, our entire team, again, thank you for joining us.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Thank you for having me and do give my greetings to Dr. Dobson.
Roger Marsh: Indeed, that was strong medicine from Dr. Erwin Lutzer. Exactly what I to hear to inspire me, to make sure that my voice is heard, and to not give up defending my faith in the public square. I hope you found it encouraging as well. Like Martin Luther did during the Protestant reformation, when it comes to defending truth, we should boldly declare, "Here we stand. We cannot do otherwise," and we need to keep in mind, as George Orwell also famously said, "The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it."
Roger Marsh: You've been listening to part two of Dr. Tim Clinton's conversation with pastor and author Dr. Erwin Lutzer here on Family Talk. They were discussing Dr. Lutzer's new book, We Will Not Be Silenced: Responding Courageously to Our Culture's Assault on Christianity. To learn more about Pastor Erwin Lutzer and his book, We Will Not Be Silenced, visit our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org. By the way, if you missed part one of this conversation, you'll find that and more on our broadcast page as well. That's drjamesdobson.org/broadcast.
Roger Marsh: Now, if this broadcast has motivated you to respond courageously to the assault on Christianity that's literally coming at us from every direction, I want to invite you to subscribe to receive Dr. Dobson's free monthly newsletter. You can receive it by mail simply by calling us: (877) 732-6825. The call takes only a couple of minutes and it makes it easy for us to get this powerful resource into your hands each and every month by mail. Again, that's (877) 732-6825. Or if you'd prefer to receive the newsletter by email, visit our website, drjamesdobson.org/subscribe. That's drjamesdobson.org/subscribe.
Roger Marsh: Thanks so much for your time today and for your continuing prayer and financial support of this ministry. It's because of listeners just like you that we're able to continue producing relevant content for you and your family. I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for listening. Join us again next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.